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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #307, Side B - Date: 3/31/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

AB: Alice Brown

SD: Sylvia Davis

(UI) Unintelligible

(UV) Unidentified Voice


     
1   Beginning of Tape:
2 SD: -- that information?
3 AB: From Dr. Fink.
4 SD: Uh-huh. What did he have to say about it?
5 AB: He said it was because, um, Dr. Seward knows so much, and he
6   thought that it would be good because of me working with my sister,
7   you know, because he knows so much that it would just be easier to
8   just have me as his, as his patient.
9 SD: Uh-huh. Is that all he said? Do those reasons seem like legitimate
10   reasons for you? But how do you feel about it?
11 AB: Okay.
12 SD: That nurse was...(clears throat)...staff person was telling me you
13   were kind of angry about it over the weekend.
14 AB: A little bit because I don’t want to change doctors.
15 SD: Yeah.
16 AB: But it’s okay.
17 SD: Well, this is not like the cult, you know, to where people have to not
18   have their feelings about things. It’s okay to have feelings about
     
    1
     
1   things, including anger, because I’ll bet that you didn’t see anybody
2   allowed to have anger in the cult unless, maybe, it was, you know,
3   the top people there or something. Right?
4   Well, we don’t feel that way around here. Even a little kid gets
5   to have feelings, even feelings of anger. So, have you met with Dr.
6   Seward since? Well, he’ll probably see you sometime today is my
7   guess. I don’t know. So, gee, if I were you I guess I would have felt
8   pretty surprised about that whole thing.
9 AB: I was.
10 SD: So maybe you didn’t have time to know what you’re feelings were
11   yet? When did you start getting your feelings?
12 AB: The night they told me.
13 SD: Afterwards, huh? Yeah. But then, of course, Dr. Fink wasn’t around
14   to hear it.
15 AB: But the Saturday after he, he met with me, and I told him I was angry
16   about it.
17 SD Did you?
18 AB Mm, hm.
19 SD: Good. and, of course, he jumped up and down on you then, right?
20   No? Didn’t punish you for being angry? No. That was a pretty silly
21   idea, huh? Do you still mind a little bit?
     
    2
     
1 AB: Huh?
2 SD: Do you still mind a little bit?
3 AB: What do you mean?
4 SD: Like mind in terms of still being a little bit mad or a little resentful
5   about it?
6 AB: A little bit.
7 SD: A little bit? Well, let’s put Dr. Fink in the chair then. Dr. Fink, you
8   fink! What do you think?
9 AB: I’m angry because I don’t want to change doctors.
10 SD: Tell him.
11 AB: I’m angry because I don’t want to change doctors. I like, I liked
12   being your patient, and I think it’s neat, and I want to stay with you.
13 SD: I’m going to miss you.
14 AB: Uh-huh. I’m going to miss being his patient.
15 SD: You were funny. Right?
16    
17 AB: Right.
18 SD: Yeah. You were funny and nice. I think you should have kept me
19   because you liked me, even if it was smarter to do it the other way.
20   Yeah?
21 AB: Mm, hm.
     
    3
     
1 SD: Nodding your head "yes?" Mm, hm. Why weren’t you loyal to me? I
2   would be loyal to you. Right? No? Not right. Use your words
3   then.
4 AB: I’m just saying because I liked being your patient.
5 SD: Dr. Seward doesn’t look like he may be that much fun. Is that right?
6   Yeah. He looks a little more serious, doesn’t he? And serious
7   sometimes means a little more scary, huh? He’s also a little bigger,
8   too, isn’t he?
9 AB: No.
10 SD: Isn’t he?
11 AB: No.
12 SD: Okay. Maybe not. (Long pause) Any other feelings about this to
13   tell Dr. Fink about? I’ll keep, I’ll invent a little bit more and you see,
14   like he’s your double. Okay? In a way this is kind of like, uh, it’s
15   kind of losing a father, in a way. Not at all?
16 AB: Not at all.
17 SD: But I wish I’d had some vote in this.
18 AB: Yeah.
19 SD: I wish I’d been there at the meeting where this was decided. It’s hard
20   for me to feel powerful when these decisions are just kind of made
21   without me.
     
    4
     
1 AB: Yeah.
2 SD: Is that right?
3 AB: Mm, hm.
4 SD: On the other hand, there are really some decisions I don’t want to
5   have any part of because even if I thought it was smarter for my
6   sister and me to have the same doctor, I would have felt disloyal to
7   vote to go with another doctor. I would have felt like I was hurting
8   your feelings.
9 AB: Uh-huh.
10 SD Uh-huh? So I guess I’m kind of relieved I didn’t have to make that
11   decision, huh?
12 AB: Uh-huh.
13 SD: Check inside and see who else has feelings about losing Dr. Fink and
14   getting Dr. Seward. Can you do that? Everybody inside gets a turn
15   in therapy if they want a turn in therapy. To say what kind of
16   feelings come up. Who else wants a turn?
17 AB: Nobody.
18 SD: Nobody wants a turn? We’re too mad to come out?
19 AB: No.
20 SD: Huh?
21 AB: No.
     
    5
     
1 SD: No? Nobody feels that way? Anybody wonder, um, when Sylvia is
2   going to decide not to see me because somebody else is seeing
3   Carol? Anybody wonder that? Yeah. Oh, Sweetie Heart, they’ll
4   have to pry me away from you with a crowbar.
5 AB: But I thought they were going to put me with Dr. Peterson instead of
6   you?
7 SD: You are under Dr. Peterson’s treatment. I work for Dr. Peterson.
8   Okay? So we’re sort of a team but with her having more power than
9   me. Okay? So she is going to be seeing you and working with you
10   on the heavy work and I’m going to be seeing you in between times
11   when she sees you and sometimes when she sees you. Okay? So
12   seeing me does not mean she’s abandoning you. And seeing her
13   doesn’t mean I won’t see you, too. Okay? I’m glad you decided to
14   check that out. You must have kind of been wondering about that,
15   huh? Like, who’s really your therapist? Yeah. Well, we’re the same
16   office and sometimes I wear her hat and, and I, uh, you know, see
17   people in between when she’s seeing them and sometimes when she
18   does. You get to have both of us -- two for one. Your jaw drops.
19 AB: Did you hear about R-T-S? They were talking about that.
20 SD: Who’s R-T-S?
21 AB: Like, going on R-T-S, which is residential treatment.
     
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1 SD: Uh-huh.
2 AB: Or being in a foster home?
3 SD: Did somebody bring up that to me?
4 AB: No. Dr. Fink brought it up.
5 SD: Dr. Fink brought it up to you? My personal, well, you always wonder
6   about that, when a home has been unsafe. You always wonder if we
7   can manage to get the home safe again so that it can operate, and
8   sometimes it takes a long time to do that when the problem has been
9   going on for a long time. So that’s just one of those things that’s, you
10   know, kind of good to have in the back of your mind as a possibility.
11   And that works different ways. Um, I personally think that, uh,
12   because you-all talked to the people at Child Protective Services, I
13   think that they’re going to try and be able to keep you in the hospital
14   until your home is fixed up. That’s what I think will happen. I
15   suppose another possibility is they might find a residential treatment
16   place and have everybody stay in therapy until the home was safe to
17   go home to. But that’s, I haven’t heard any threat of that or any
18   immediacy about that.
19 AB: But would I get to say what I would want to do, or would they just
20   do it?
     
    7
     
1 SD: I think that you would get some choice in the matter. Like, if there
2   was -- first off this is way down the line. I haven’t heard any,
3   anything at all suggested that this is going to be any immediate
4   consideration. Okay? And I’ve been in on your last few treatment
5   team meetings. Okay. So, um, I haven’t heard anything like that, but
6   usually how it works is they find and see if there’s a couple of places
7   that might accept you and have you visit the different ones.
8 AB: Homes or like...?
9 SD: Like residential treatment, usually.
10 AB: What is that?
11 SD: Well, it’s kind of like a place where kids live together, just like here,
12   and go to school together, but they don’t have as much therapy, and
13   it’s not as much of a lockup, uh, kind of situation.
14 AB: But I thought, I thought a foster home was where you, where you
15   lived with a family.
16 SD: That’s right. Those are other options, also. But those are not really,
17   uh, being considered right now. Nobody’s -- CPS hasn’t even said
18   that they would like to look for that or they would like to consider
19   that or whatever.
20 AB: What has CPS said?
21 SD: Nothing. Nothing.
     
    8
     
1 AB Nothing?
2 SD Nothing. So maybe that means they think that there’s some good
3   work going on here and they’ll leave it alone for a bit. It’s very
4   interesting. What were your thoughts? That you’d rather be in a
5   residential treatment than...
6 AB: What I meant was...
7 SD: ...here in a hospital?
8 AB: What I meant by residential treatment was here in this hospital. They
9   have what’s called residential treatment.
10 SD: Yeah. But that’s for kids who then go home.
11 AB: No. That’s P-H-P.
12 SD: Okay.
13 AB: R-T-S is where you live here.
14 SD: Uh-huh.
15 AB: P-H-P is a day patient.
16 SD: Oh, okay. oh, thank you. So, uh, what’s the difference in that
17   residential and living here and what you’re doing? You want to know
18   what the difference is?
19 AB: I know what the difference is. It’s just that they, they told me that if
20   the insurance company didn’t approve R-T-S, then I would go to a
21   foster home.
     
    9
     
1 SD: Who told you that?
2 AB: Dr. Fink.
3 SD: Well, my experience has been that foster homes are not that easy
4   come by. Are you kind of scared of that idea?
5 AB: No.
6 SD: Do you like the idea? You like the idea of being home instead of
7   getting therapy? Really? Tell me more about that.
8 AB: Well I was thinking. I asked Dr. Fink if, if I was in a foster home
9   could I be on P-H-P, and he said it was a possibility.
10 SD: Uh-huh. So you’re ss...you’re thinking...what? Tell me exactly what
11   you’re thinking so I don’t --
12 AB: That I would live in a foster home and be on P-H-P for a while until
13   my mom and sister got out.
14 SD: You like the idea of being in a regular home instead of spending the
15   nights here at the hospital. Say more about that, why that is?
16 AB: Well, I just, just because I’d like it. I’d like it better.
17 SD: Can you tell me what you would like better? Just so I understand a
18   little better.
19 AB: Because it’s a house. It’s not a hospital.
20 SD: Just it would feel homier? What is it that you miss that’s more of
21   being a regular home. What are you missing a whole lot?
     
    10
     
1 AB: Just not being able to do stuff sometimes.
2 SD: Like what?
3 AB: Just like going outside when I want to.
4 SD: Uh-huh.
5 AB: Going places when I want to.
6 SD: Uh-huh.
7 AB: And everything’s so locked up. You can’t go anywhere without
8   unlocking a door or anything.
9 SD: Yeah Yeah. Mm, hm. (Long pause) I can understand that. It’s
10   just the feeling of the locked-upness and the lack of choice. Yeah. I
11   understand that. I met your dad Friday.
12 AB: You did?
13 SD: Uh-huh. In, in a session.
14 AB: Was Cathy in the session?
15 SD: No. I met your dad and mom. I mean, I know your mom. But your
16   dad and mom were in session with Deidra and Dr. Peterson and me
17   and Dr. Seward. I like your dad. I really had a nice feeling about
18   him.
19 AB: When are they going to start letting me see him again?
20 SD: I don’t know.
21 AB: Can my mom see him?
     
    11
     
1 SD: She saw him in the session
2 AB: And that’s it?
3 SD: Uh-huh.
4 AB: When will I get to see him?
5 SD: I don’t know. He needs to be working on his own therapy, and you
6   need to be working on your own therapy, and your mom needs to be
7   working on her own therapy, and Carol needs to be working on
8   her own therapy. Everybody’s work, uh, work on their part before
9   the pieces start coming in together again That’s not very satisfying
10   to know, huh? Not very. Is there anything else you ... have you seen
11   Dr. Seward? I bet you’ve seen Dr. Seward, or did you say you’re
12   going to see him later this evening? You know what he looks like,
13   right?
14 AB: Yeah.
15 SD: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Dimwit, what do you mean? Of course, I
16   know him.
17 AB: (Inaudible) -- in session. I, because when I came into the hospital
18   Dr. Seward was, Dr Fink was out of town..
19 SD: Mm, hm
20 AB: ...and so I saw him until Dr. Fink got back.
     
    12
     
1 SD: Uh-huh. He’s not too bad an egg, you know, is he? What would you
2   like to say to him? Sorry, Dr. Fink you’re out of the chair now. What
3   would you like [to say] to Dr. Seward that you might not say to him for
4   real or you might say to him for real? I don’t know.
5 AB: I don’t want say anything.
6 SD: I don’t want say anything to you. I’m going to punish you. You
7   think you have the right to change doc...change and get to be my
8   doctor and just automatically take over? Too bad. I won’t be mean
9   or anything, I just won’t say anything. I just won’t have anything to
10   say to you. That would show you. I’ll show you you’re not as good
11   a doctor as Dr. Fink.
12 AB: Noooo!
13 SD: No?
14 AB: No.
15 SD: Well, you wouldn’t say that kind of mean thing Out loud, but don’t
16   you feel that way? Yeah. Yeah. You nod your head "yeah." Yeah.
17   Dr. Fink was the good doctor. You’re just the fill-in doctor.
18   Somebody’s out of town. (Screaming heard from another room).
19   Somebody is having a problem. Don’t worry about it.
20 AB: I just want to go back home.
21 SD: You be Dr. Fink for a minute, um, Dr. Seward. I’ll be you..
     
    13
     
1 AB: This office is too small. (Laughs) I don’t know what to say.
2 SD: I don’t know what to say. Everything is fine. I just want to go
3   home. Dr. Fink knew what to say to me.
4 AB: Hm?
5 SD: Dr. Fink knew what to say to me. He knew what to say to me. He
6   was the good doctor, and he’s younger than you, and cuter than you.
7   He’s the real doctor. I[’m] don’t want to talk to you. But I won’t tell
8   you that. I’ll just be polite and be quiet. How does that feel being
9   Dr. Seward?
10 AB: I don’t like it.
11 SD: Is it a little bit of a hard job just starting with a kid that’s been
12   somebody else’s patient? What’s hard about it?
13 AB: I don’t know what to say.
14 SD: And you’re aware that this kid over here really likes Dr. Fink, aren’t
15   you? I bet you wish I would give you a chance, huh? Not me:
16 AB: (Laughs)
17 SD: I’m not giving you a chance. I’m mad. Okay. But I won’t say this.
18   I’ll just be polite. I’ll be very polite because I’m a nice girl. Just
19   don’t want to open up to you. I bet you feel kind of helpless, don’t
20   you, Dr. Seward? Well, I’ve got this much power. I can decide
21   who I trust. Why do you want me to trust you? What’s happening?
     
    14
     
1   Would you rather be yourself? Okay. I’ll be Dr. Seward for a minute.
2   Well, how would you like your therapy to go?
3 AB: (Inaudible.)
4 SD: Oh, God, she doesn’t like me. Oh, dear.
5 AB: I do, too!
6 SD: Oh! Really? Me? Dr. Seward? You like me a little bit? Will you
7   give me a chance? Yeah? I hope so because I get my feelings hurt. I
8   also hope so because I don’t want you to lose time on getting well.
9   you know? We wouldn’t have made this decision except we thought
10   it would work better for your family and you, you know? What are
11   you feeling?
12 AB: (Grunts)
13 SD: You have to do a lot of worrying about other members of your
14   family, don’t you?
15 AB: (Grunts)
16   (Long pause)
17 SD: Do you wonder why Dr. Fink didn’t get to be Carol’s doctor
18   instead? Did you wonder that? Did you ask anybody? How come?
19 AB: (Inaudible.)
20 SD: You know what I’m seeing happening here? I’m seeing stuff going on
21   for you but, as Sylvia, but it takes me a while to kind of guess at it.
     
    15
     
1   And you’re very honest. If I get it then you tell me, you know? And
2   you don’t deny it. And that’s, that’s real good, but I’m always having
3   to guess and try and feel like what it would feel like to be you for
4   stuff to come out, and I, I guess that’s because you just weren’t
5   allowed to have thoughts and feelings and express them before. But
6   if you would be able to take permission to come out with stuff, then
7   I think that your therapy would go a lot faster. I guess that’s a hard
8   habit to get, isn’t it? To be able to speak your mind. I think maybe
9   you’ve had too much practice being a good girl. No? Well, that’s
10   what it looks like to me. I mean, like a good obedient girl to adults,
11   and not daring to question and to say things that, you know, sound a
12   little resentful or a little bit angry. Because as I thought about it, I
13   thought, of course, if this was me, I mean, I’m a grown-up who has
14   one sister. Right? And I had one sister when I was a kid. And if she
15   had a doctor and I had a doctor and they said I had to have her
16   doctor because it would make things smoother for the family, you
17   know, I think I would have wanted to know, "Why can’t she have my
18   doctor? Help me understand this. Why I have to be the one who
19   gives in." What’s going on? What’s going on? Am I on the mark with
20   this? Yeah, I’m on the mark with this. Does Carol always get
21   more, lots more power in the home than you do for being three
     
    16
     
1   years older? Yeah? And even when she’s not in the room with us,
2   even when she’s not in the room with us, and I’m asking you for your
3   feelings and so on, something in you is saying, "Carol’s the older.
4   Carol’s better, or Carol’s whatever." So you don’t have any
5   rights to ask about it or feel about it? Shake your head up and down
6   or sideways or something. Let me know. Yeah. My goodness to
7   Betsy.
8   We11, does that feel like it’s, uh, would be uncomfortable or
9   disloyal to explore? Yeah? Well I wouldn’t be telling Carol, you
10   know. Or you think I would? Did anybody at all do anything to
11   me since our last session? People that are afraid inside to talk are also
12   afraid to write then, too, huh? Yeah? You need to have some kind of
13   special pills, part courage and part self-esteem, good self-esteem, and
14   part trust. Need to work up a pill like that for y’all to take so that the
15   ones who are afraid about talking and afraid about writing can start
16   to share because this sweet young person that I see before me is so
17   shut down in sharing about feelings, that what it feels like to me is
18   I’m doing too much of the work in here. I don’t say that in a way of
19   being mad about it, but just noticing, you know, like if we were on a
20   bicycle for two? Have you ever seen one of those? A bicycle that has
21   two people and pedals for each one? I don’t mean riding just one on
     
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1   back of the other or on handlebars, I mean, bikes that have two seats
2   and two sets of pedals.
3 AB: Uh-huh. I know.
4 SD: Yeah. And today, like, I feel like, and some days I feel like in our
5   session that I’m doing most of the pedaling. Consequently, I’m
6   getting strong legs, but you’re not developing any therapy muscle.
7   You’re just kind of along for the ride, enjoying the scenery. I don’t
8   know. Maybe you’re checking out to see if I can keep the thing
9   steered right and not go into mud puddles and ditches and stuff, but
10   I need some more, some more muscle from you, some more input,
11   some more verbalizing, some more thinking and feeling and talking.
12   Okay? (Banging heard in background) Is that upsetting to you for
13   you to hear that banging and stuff? How do you think that kid in
14   there feels?
is AB: Angry.
16 SD: Angry. Do you ever feel like that? Inside.
17 AB: Uh-huh.
18   (Knock on the door.)
19 SD: Yes?
20 UV: (Inaudible.)
     
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1 SD: I think we’re going to have to stop now anyway so you can get lunch
2   and stuff. Do you want to put it -- here We’re just finishing.
3   Elaine? I’m just, I’m just finishing
4 UV: Oh, you are? Okay.
5 SD: Did you know I was in ...?
6   (Tape ends)
     
    19
     

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