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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #304, Side A & B - Date: 3/9/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

DR. PETERSON: Dr. Judith Peterson

DR. SEWARD: Dr. Richard Seward

ALICE: Alice Brown

CAROL: Carol Smith

(UI) Unintelligible


     
    (Beginning of Side A)
1 CAROL: What was that for?
2 DR. SEWARD: The chair?
3 CAROL: Yeah.
4 DR. SEWARD: Because I borrowed it from out of here, and I’m just putting it back.
5 CAROL: Oh. I saw Carol.
6 CAROL: So?
7 DR. SEWARD: So?
8 CAROL: So what do I do?
9 DR. SEWARD: What do you want to do?
10 CAROL: I want to get Alice to talk.
11 DR. SEWARD: You had some ideas about that?
12 CAROL: Well, I don’t know how to go about it.
13 DR. SEWARD: I thought you had some ideas about that.
14 CAROL: Well, should I talk to her? Should I talk to you? Or should I talk to you?
15   Who do I talk to?
     
    1
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Who would be the safest?
2 CAROL: I don’t know. Do you know why you’re here? Why?
3 ALICE: Because you and Mom said that I was involved in the cult, and they want to
4   find out if I was.
5 CAROL: And you have absolutely no feelings or thoughts or anything about that?
6 ALICE: It’s scary.
7 CAROL: I know. But the sooner you start talking about it the sooner they’re going to
8   be able to help you. I’m sorry to say this; but if you don’t start talking,
9   you’re going to get taken away from Mom.
10 ALICE: Why?
11 CAROL: Because she’s not safe right now, and I’m beginning to wonder if Dad is.
12   Did he tell you he’s moved out of the house?
13 ALICE: Yeah.
14 DR. SEWARD: I wonder if it would be helpful, Carol, for you to -- and you don’t have
15   to do this if you don’t feel safe -- but I was wondering if it would be helpful
16   if you were to share some with Alice some of the things that you know
17   about? What’s happened to you.
18 CAROL: You mean, like, what Mom --
19 DR SEWARD: Just what happened to you.
20 CAROL: Like, what Mom - I don’t know if you know anything about this. I’m sure
21   you do somewhere. But right around Christmas Mom started taking us --
     
    2
     
1   me, as far as I know -- to meetings; and I have a feeling she took you, too.
2   You just don’t remember it.
3 ALICE: Where?
4 CAROL: I don’t know. Is any of it coming back?
5 DR. PETERSON: What’s happening, Alice?
6 ALICE: I’m scared.
7 DR. PETERSON: You’re scared? Carol, can you tell her more?
8 CAROL: I’m just trying to get you to understand that the sooner
9 DR. SEWARD: Carol, can you put both feet on the floor, please. Thank you.
10 CAROL: The sooner you can start, maybe, talking about some of this the sooner
11   anybody is going to be able to help you, the sooner you’re going to be able
12   to get out of it.
13 DR. PETERSON: Are you reluctant to talk about this?
14 CAROL: Me? I just don’t want to upset her anymore than she already is.
15 DR. PETERSON: What if her problem is, is that she’s not upset?
16 CAROL: You’re not upset?
17 ALICE: Yeah.
18 DR. PETERSON: So you’d rather have her be not more upset than this but, I guess, go back to
19   the cult?
20 CAROL: No, definitely not.
     
    3
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Do you believe she’s been --
2 CAROL: I do. I don’t remember --
3 DR. PETERSON: Do you believe we can help her with how upset she might get?
4 CAROL: Yeah.
5 DR. PETERSON: Okay. Because she hasn’t been upset at all. She’s been on vacation. This is
6   the most upset she’s been, right here, right now.
7 DR SEWARD: As a matter of fact, what I’m getting through Alice is that she’s more upset
8   with the notion that she can’t be with her mom than she is about the
9   possibility that she would be abused by a cult.
10 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh.
11 CAROL: She did some terrible things to us, Alice.
12 DR. PETERSON: Can you tell her about the terrible things that you remember?
13 CAROL: She used electricity and she shocked and she cut and she burned.
14 DR. SEWARD: Do you have any scars, Alice?
15 ALICE: Huh-huh.
16 DR. PETERSON: Do you think she does?
17 CAROL: I don’t know. She’s got a scar on her head that she’s had since she was a
18   baby, right here in the middle of her forehead.
19 DR SEWARD: Do you remember how she got it?
     
    4
     
1 CAROL: Mom said it was because whenever she was a baby, she had to have an IV
2   put in her head when she was in the hospital.
3 DR. SEWARD: It was an awful big IV.
4 CAROL: Well, it’s like a big white mark right here.
5 DR. SEWARD: Can we see?
6 ALICE: Okay. It’s right there.
7 DR. PETERSON: That’s a real big mark.
8 CAROL: It’s been there ever since I can remember.
9 DR. SEWARD: It doesn’t look like an IV scar to me.
10 CAROL: No. I don’t think so either. Do you understand what I’m getting at? Do you
11   want to help Mom? Do you know anything at all? I’m going to sound like
12   Dr. Seward when I say this, but somebody does.
13 DR. PETERSON: Can you tell her about the wooden mallet?
14 CAROL: Do you remember the wooden hammer Mom had in the kitchen? Did she
15   ever hit you with it?
16 ALICE: Not that I remember
17 CAROL: She never busted you on the knees with it? She did me.
18 DR. PETERSON: And Mom told me that she got that from her mother and her mother busted
19   her on the knees with it and that’s a family tradition.
20 CATHBRJNE: Do you ever have any pain in your knees? Ever?
21 ALICE: No.
     
    5
     
1 DR. SEWARD: How about other joints, Alice?
2 ALICE: No. Just right here sometimes.
3 CAROL: Never your fingers? Pull out your hands. Her pinkies are just like mine.
4 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh. Tell her about that.
5 CAROL: Pinkies? They used...slap them. No, I’m not telling you to do it.
6 DR. PETERSON: Mom, showed me how she does it the other night when I talked to her, how
7   she did it to you girls to twist and twist and twist and tell you not to tell and
8   not to talk.
9 DR SEWARD: What are you thinking, Alice?
10 ALICE: I’m scared.
ii DR. SEWARD: How scared?
12 ALICE: Very scared.
13 DR. SEWARD: How?
14 ALICE: Will I ever see Mom again?
15 CAROL: Did you ever think, maybe, that might be the best thing so that you can stay
16   safe? So that Mom can stay safe?
17 DR. SEWARD: Do you think you’ll ever see Carol again?
18 ALICE: I hope so.
19 DR. SEWARD: Huh?
20 ALICE: I hope so.
     
    6
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Do you know that Carol can never see you again if you go back home to
2   your mom?
3 CAROL: Because I can’t.
4 ALICE: You can never see Mom again?
5 CAROL: I can’t go home.
6 DR. SEWARD: Who’s decision is that?
7 CAROL: Mine. That was my decision because I want to live and stay safe and be
8   normal someday; and as long as Mom is the way she is and not doing
9   anything about it, there’s no way that anyone can go home and be safe.
10 DR. PETERSON: You both can help her and help you. But if everybody stays not talking, or if
11   you, Alice, don’t talk about it and aren’t able to work it out and aren’t able
12   to remember what happened so you can’t defend yourself, then there’s no
13   way for you to be able to be at home with Mom. You have to be able to
14   remember and work it out. Just like Mom is remembering and saying, "Yes,
15   I did these things;" and she’s beginning to work it out. What happens if you
16   begin to remember? What’s supposed to happen?
17 ALICE: I don’t know.
18 DR. PETERSON: Does someone know? Do you hear anything inside? I’m talking to
19   everybody. That the being hurt is real.
     
    7
     
1 DR SEWARD: Is there anything you would be willing to tell Alice, Carol, about what
2   you know about what would happen to you or what did happen to you if you
3   talked?
4 CAROL: Won’t that make her not want to talk?
5 DR. SEWARD: I don’t know. She’s certainly not talking now.
6 DR. PETERSON: Would it help her, Carol, instead to know that you’re talking about what
7   happened; and it’s not happening? You’re here safe, talking.
8 CAROL: They told us that if we ever said anything to anybody about this that we
9   would be taken and killed. But see, I’m here and I’m talking about it, and I’m
10   alive and well. And nobody’s going to hurt me. And you can do it, too.
11 DR. PETERSON: Mom got told the same thing, that if she ever told, she’d get killed. And she
12   knows she has to stay here and tell here and work out how to be safe when
13   you-all leave the hospital. It’s not safe to go home where you were. All the
14   sessions where you sat there with Mom and pretended everything is okay.
15   Well, they’re all done now. All the pretending is over.
16 CAROL: She got to see Mom?
17 DR. PETERSON: No. I’m talking about before, outpatient.
18 DR. SEWARD: In Deidra’s office.
19 DR. PETERSON: Yeah. I’m talking only from reference. I didn’t see them, but I’m just
20   assuming that nobody directly talked about the abuse.
21 CATHERINE: No, No, never.
     
    8
     
1 DR. PETERSON: And I’m saying that those kinds of sessions are over now. That now we
2   professionals, who are always very slow we finally have figured out that
3   you’re all being abused.
4 CAROL: Maybe, even Daddy.
5 DR. PETERSON: Yeah. Yeah, Daddy, too. Everybody’s been hurt.
6 CAROL: But it’s not all Mom’s fault.
7 DR. PETERSON: Mom’s a victim, too.
8 CAROL: They did it to her, and that’s why she did it to us because she was scared.
9   And it’s okay for you to be angry at her.
10 DR. SEWARD: Carol, can you check inside and see if there are any parts that know any
11   parts of Alice?
12 CAROL: No. Nobody’s noticed anything about her being multiple, but it’s very
13   possible. And I’m sure it’s true.
14 DR. SEWARD: What does that mean?
15 CAROL: That means that she hasn’t done any switching around us, that nobody’s been
16   able to notice that there’s somebody else there.
17 DR. PETERSON: If that were the case, would you know how to talk to them since you’re both
18   from the same cult?
19 CAROL: I don’t know. I don’t know any of the names.
20 DR. PETERSON: Can you ask inside if somebody knows how to talk, how to communicate
21   some way?
     
    9
     
1 DR. SEWARD: We’re particularly interested in what Natasha, Richard, Robert, and Kenny
2   have to say.
3 CAROL: Have you tried hypnosis?
4 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh.
5 CAROL: The chair, the elevator?
6 DR. PETERSON: What does the chair mean? Can you ask what that is?
7 CAROL: Oh, the chair? Dr. Seward used to do the chair inside the elevator.
8 DR. SEWARD: Yeah. That’s something we haven’t had a chance to process in a long time. I
9   haven’t been wanting to use the chair because that’s her brother’s chair and
10   her brother is active.
11 DR. PETERSON: Yeah? So she sat in a chair inside and rode it down? And that was the one
12   you picked?
13 CAROL: Yeah
14 DR. PETERSON: That’s interesting. I’d be concerned, I’d want to know more about that.
15   Now, I was concerned --
16 CAROL: Well, it was a comfortable chair. It was a safe chair.
17 DR. SEWARD: That’s what you said.
18 CAROL: Yeah. I don’t know. I haven’t thought about it lately.
19 DR. PETERSON: There is a part that Alice says is -- can I tell her about it, what we have
20   done so far? There’s a part named Claudia, and -- what’s the other ones
     
    10
     
1   name? But I don’t think they know anything about what Carol is talking
2   about. They may know parts that do know, but are, maybe, really scared.
3 CAROL: Do you do a journal? Does everybody know that they can write in it?
4   Maybe she should have a journal that she’s not allowed to read because,
5   maybe, they don’t want her to know; so they don’t write in it, and they don’t
6   talk. So if she has a journal that she’s not allowed to read, they have a way
7   to write; and she doesn’t know. All she does is bring it in and let you read it
8   or whoever.
9 ALICE: That’s good advice. I could use that.
10 DR. SEWARD: Noted.
11 CAROL: Would you try that?
12 ALICE: I only have one journal.
13 CAROL: You can get another one.
14 DR. PETERSON.. It’s easy.
15 CAROL: They’ll give you one at the desk.
16 DR. PETERSON: For free.
17 DR. SEWARD: Yeah. I guess my concern, Carol, with regard to Alice is that it took
18   some parts of you a lot of work, a lot of time to reach a point to where you
19   felt safe letting me know that you were there. And we don’t have that time
20   with Alice. And my concern is being able to win enough trust from those
     
    11
     
1   who do know -- if they’re there -- to be able to do something in a short
2   period of time
3 DR. PETERSON: And especially for those parts to come out and tell us enough that we can
4   justify that you’re in the hospital and stay here where it’s safe and not leave
5   because we don’t want you to leave and be re-abused. We want the abuse to
6   stop now. And the parts inside need to really hear that. That we want that
7   to stop.
8 DR SEWARD: But we can’t do anything to help it stop if the parts inside don’t help us and
9   let us know what there is to stop. And we’re still concerned that you’d rather
10   go home.
11 CAROL: Do you think, maybe, at another time I could do what I did for Jessica?
12 DR. SEWARD: Another time?
13 CAROL: Could I do it now?
14 DR. SEWARD: That’s your prerogative.
15 CAROL: Do you know what I did?
16 DR. PETERSON: I think so.
17 CAROL: You told her what I did? Okay. Then you know what I did. Maybe, I
18   should clarify.
19 DR. PETERSON: Tell us what you needed to ask is whether I remember exactly what I said.
20   There’s no way I am going to remember exactly that.
     
    12
     
1 CAROL: Okay. What I did -- okay. There’s another patient over on adolescent that I
2   did this for. She’s multiple, and she was having a hard time getting used to
3   the idea of being multiple -- being able to go in and out and switch and
4   everything -- and so I went in there, and I did some switching. And I let her
5   talk to some people and ask them questions so that they could see, you
6   know, that there’s different ways of switching and different things that go on.
7   And then she did it for me a little bit. And I’m not saying you have to do
8   that, but would you feel comfortable with me -- you would?
9 DR SEWARD: I think Alice would feel comfortable if you stood on your head and stacked
10   greasy BB’s.
11 CATHERPNE: Huh?
12 DR. SEWARD: I said, I think Alice would feel comfortable if you stood on your head and
13   stacked greasy BB’s.
14 CAROL: What does that mean?
15 DR. SEWARD: I think she’d be comfortable with anything you asked her.
16 CAROL: Is that good or bad?
17 DR. SEWARD: You tell me.
18 CAROL: I don’t know. Probably it’s -- I don’t know. I’m confused. You lost me.
19   What do you mean?
20 DR. SEWARD: I don’t think Alice is -- I don’t think Alice cares what you do.
21 CAROL: Oh. Then that’s not good, is it?
     
    13
     
1 DR. SEWARD: You tell me.
2 CAROL: Anyways. So do you want me to, like make a list like I did in there? And.
3 DR. SEWARD: I wonder if Natasha would come talk?
4 CAROL: To her.
5 DR. SEWARD: Uh-huh.
6 CATHBRINE: All right.
7 DR. SEWARD: You’re there?
8 CAROL: Uh-huh.
9 DR. SEWARD: What would you like to tell Alice about yourself? (Loud crying in
10   background) That’s an abreaction. That’s the recovery of a painful memory.
11 CATIIERINE: I got to do that?
12 DR. SEWARD: No, you don’t. I think you’ll feel better if you do.
13 CATHFRINE: What if I don’t make all that noise?
14 DR. SEWARD: You don’t have to.
15 CATHBRINE: All right. But anyways --
16 DR. SEWARD: It’s the feelings and the memories that count.
17 CATHFRINE: I can have feelings without --
18 DR. PETERSON: You don’t get points for being loud.
19 CAROL: Okay. I think ...Um.
20 DR. PETERSON: What does the ear to hair mean?
21 CAROL: Huh?
     
    14
     
1 DR. PETERSON: Ear to hair?
2 CAROL: Oh, I, I just --
3 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
4 CAROL: It’s just the way of getting my...
5 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh.
6 CAROL: It’s just the way of...
7 DR. SEWARD: I’m glad somebody else nailed you on it.
8 CAROL: Well, I do it all the time.
9 DR. SEWARD: I know.
10 DR. PETERSON: Mm, hm. Don’t hear...
11 DR. SEWARD: I know.
12 DR. PETERSON: ...don’t talk, (inaudible). Go on.
13 CAROL: Huh?
14 DR. PETERSON: Huh? I’ve been around cult victims too long.
15 DR. SEWARD: Like Alice is saying, she can’t talk right now.
16 DR. PETERSON: Stuff it in your mouth, why don’t you. Go ahead. Why don’t you put it all
17   the way in your mouth? Then you won’t be able to talk at all.
18 CAROL: I, I want you to talk.
19 DR. SEWARD: Do you know who that is?
20 CAROL: Alice.
21 DR SEWARD: How much interaction have you had with Alice?
     
    15
     
1 CAROL: Not much, but I know it’s, like, Carol’s sister. She lived with us. So -- I
2   haven’t had much interaction with her, but I know who she is. And I know
3   she’s been through the same stuff.
4 DR. SEWARD: How do you know?
5 CAROL: Because I just do.
6 DR. SEWARD: How?
7 CAROL: I’ve never been there while it’s happened, but I’ve seen her aftewards.
8 DR. PETERSON: What have you seen afterwards? Tell her.
9 CAROL: Just how upset you were and...
10 DR. SEWARD: You would know that she’s come back from a meeting?
11 CAROL: Yeah. I’ve seen her. Yeah. We’ve kind of come back together a couple of
12   times.
13 DR. PETERSON: Tell her.
14 CAROL: We’ve come back together a couple of times. I know you’ve been. And I
15   know somebody inside knows that we’ve been.
16 DR. PETERSON: Came back together, -- walk, drive, horseback?
17 CAROL: In a car.
18 DR. PETERSON: Car. Get your hands off your mouth, honey. Thank you.
19 CAROL: It’s not funny, it’s very serious.
20 DR. SEWARD: What did you see that she’s like? Wait. Let me interrupt a second. Alice,
21   do you know who this is? Who?
     
    16
     
1 ALICE: Natasha.
2 DR. SEWARD: Who’s Natasha?
3 ALICE: I don’t know.
4 CAROL: She’s never talked to me before.
5 DR. SEWARD: Can you tell Alice who you are?
6 CAROL: I’m one of Carol’s parts.
7 DR SEWARD: Can you tell her anything more? You don’t have to tell her anything if it feels
8   unsafe; but can you tell her anything more about how come you’re a part of
9   her parts?
10 CAROL: Because I was there to help her deal with some of the the feelings and the
11   cult stuff.
12 DR. SEWARD: Did you go to meetings?
13 CAROL: I never actually went. I was there on the way back a lot of times to deal
14   with, like, the aftermath.
15 DR. SEWARD: Okay. So you know about aftermaths?
16 CAROL: Yeah.
17 DR. PETERSON: I want to ask a question. Just a second, Natasha. Who was there right
18   before you come? Not that she has to, she has to come out right now.
19 CAROL: Usually Richard, Kenny, or Robert.
20 DR. PETERSON: Okay. Just ask them for a moment, do they remember Sister at meetings?
     
    17
     
1 CAROL: Richard says we were separated into age groups, and she was in one of the
2   younger age groups. We were never there actually together in the same
3   place, but she was there in another age group.
4 DR. PETERSON: And who drove there then?
5 CAROL: Mom.
6 DR. PETERSON: Who and you went there? You say, you drove home. You went home, and
7   those three were there. And who? Who went there?
8 CAROL: Oh. Oh. Who went there?
9 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh.
10 CAROL: Usually, I think, I think, Kenny went and did a lot of the going and I did a
11   lot of the coming back and Richard did the staying there.
12 DR. PETERSON: Did Kenny go with Alice? Does he know about that sometimes?
13 CAROL: He says he can remember her being in the car.
14 DR. PETERSON: Okay. Thank you.
15 CAROL: So that’s established. She has been, and you know that. You have been.
16 DR. PETERSON: Okay. So what was it like in the car then on the way home?
17 CAROL: You were usually sedated in the car coming home.
18 DR. PETERSON: What does that mean?
19 CAROL: Knocked out. Pills. And then once we got home, you were put back to bed
20   -- and so was I -- and everything was fine the next morning, supposedly; or
21   so we were told to act like.
     
    18
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Do you remember that?
2 CAROL: Me?
3 DR. SEWARD: Uh-huh.
4 CAROL: Uh-huh.
5 DR. SEWARD: Told to act like everything was normal?
6 CAROL: Yeah.
7 DR. PETERSON: Do you remember being drugged?
8 CAROL: Not the actual drugging, but I can remember feeling drugged.
9 DR. PETERSON: Was Alice’s eyes opened then? Are the parts that would remember her being
10   drugged going home?
11 CAROL: Yeah. She was.
12 DR. PETERSON: Then her eyes were open? Did you talk?
13 CAROL: No. They were closed.
14 DR. PETERSON: She was always asleep?
15 CAROL: Always asleep.
16 DR. PETERSON: Always asleep.
17 DR. SEWARD: Ken... would Kenny be willing to come talk? What do you remember about
18   going?
19 CAROL: We were all blindfolded except for Mom.
20 DR. PETERSON: Was she?
21 CAROL Yeah.
     
    19
     
1 DR. PETERSON: What was that like?
2 CAROL: It was pretty scary because we didn’t know where we were going.
3 DR. PETERSON: Where was the blindfold on her body?
4 CAROL: On her eyes. Her glasses were taken off and put on the dashboard, and she
5   was blindfolded.
6 DR. SEWARD: Before you get in the car or after?
7 CAROL: Before we got in the car. Before we even got out of the house.
8 DR. PETERSON: She was blindfolded before she ever got out of the house? Did you ever help
9   blindfold her?
10 CAROL: No. I wasn’t allowed to be near her unless we were in the car and we were
11   both blindfolded.
12 DR. SEWARD: Did you ever talk?
13 CAROL: No, we weren’t allowed to.
14 DR. SEWARD: What would happen if you talked?
15 CAROL: We’d get a quick slap.
16 DR. PETERSON: Who was in the car with you?
17 CAROL: Mom.
18 DR. PETERSON: Dad?
19 CAROL: I can’t remember him ever being in the car with us. I can remember there
20   was a lady from up the street that went with us sometimes. Her name was
21   Arie and another lady named Deborah.
     
    20
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Do you remember what Arie’s last name was?
2 CAROL: Deborah’s was Ludwick. Arie, Arie lived next door to Deborah.
3 DR. PETERSON: Did they have children?
4 CAROL: Deborah did; Arie didn’t.
5 DR. PETERSON: Did the children go?
6 ALICE: Deborah’s youngest kid did once in a while. I think he was 3. No. He was 4,
7 DR. PETERSON: What happened to the younger children?
8 CATIIERINE: I don’t know. Once we got there, we were all separated and then taken with
9   our age groups. Then that was where Richard came in.
10 DR. PETERSON: What happens to someone almost 12? Who inside you knows that? To
11   someone who’s 12, almost 13
12 CAROL: She is 13.
13 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh. She came here on her 13th birthday. What happens through your
14   12th year? Who knows that ?
15 CAROL: I know some of it.
16 DR. PETERSON: Okay.
17 CAROL: There was a lot of the decompression chamber.
18 DR. PETERSON: What’s that?
19 DR. SEWARD: What did you -- what just happened, Alice?
20 ALICE: Nothing.
21 DR. SEWARD: Something just happened.
     
    21
     
1 CATHPRINE: You have to remember, Alice. There’s no way around it. You have to
2   remember this.
3 ALICE: I remember once when we lived -- where we -- where, where, um -- just
4   before we came here. It was right before Christmas, and Mom -- I don’t
5   know. I don’t remember anymore, but we, it was me and Mom and
6   Deborah, and that lady Arie. We all got in the car and we went somewhere
7   real late.
8 DR SEWARD. You, you jerked when Carol said decompression chamber. You did it
9   again.
10 CATIlERINE: Do you remember anything about it?
11 DR. SEWARD: Somebody inside knows about decompression chambers.
12 DR. PETERSON: Mm, hm.
13 DR. SEWARD: You need to come out now.
14 DR. PETERSON: It’s okay.
15 DR. SEWARD: We know about the decompression chambers, and we know you know about
16   the decompression chambers.
17 ALICE They would put you in, and it was, it was horrible. And when you come out,
18   you’d feel like you were almost dead. And it was, it was scary because no
19   one knew what was happening. And you wish you could just scream, but
20   nobody could hear you.
     
    22
     
1 DR. PETERSON: It must have been awful. Do you remember more about it? Did you ever
2   think you’d be able to talk out loud about it? What’s that like?
3 ALICE: It’s, It’s good in a way; but it’s sort of scary, too.
4 DR. PETERSON: Does Alice know about this?
5 ALICE: No.
6 DR. PETERSON: Can you tell me who I’m talking to?
7 ALICE: Claudia.
8 DR. PETERSON: Is this the same Claudia that I met before or a different one?
9 ALICE: Same one.
10 DR. SEWARD: Same one? Did that happen a lot?
11 ALICE: Yeah.
12 DR. PETERSON: Yeah?
13 ALICE: That’s why I’m so scared to mess up in the quiet room because the quiet
14   room looks like one of those places.
is DR. PETERSON: Oh. Well, then it’s really important for you to know that you won’t be in
16   there, that we can talk about how scary that room is; and we can talk to the
17   nurses about how scary that room is. And would you feel better knowing
18   that they know how scary it is for you; and that it’s okay to mess up, and
19   we’ll handle it in a different way?
20 DR. SEWARD: Claudia, can you now begin to talk about other things that hurt?
21 ALICE: Uh-huh.
     
    23
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Do you know of anyone else who could also talk? Somebody just came up
2   and looked around. Who’s there? Can you tell me who’s there?
3 DR. PETERSON: Real scary? Yeah. You’d be taking a big step, wouldn’t it? Do you think you
4   could take that big step?
S DR. SEWARD: Have you been to the decompression chamber? Do you know that you will
6   go back if we are unable to get you out of the cult? Is that okay?
7 DR. PETERSON: Did they tell you you’d go back if you talk about it? Yeah. You need to
8   know that the only help about this, to get away from it, is to talk about it.
9   They lied to you. Carol is really talking, really getting help. Do you
10   think you can take that chance?
11 DR. SEWARD: If Carol and I left the room so that you could talk with Dr. Peterson,
12   would it be helpful?
13 ALICE: I guess so. ( Door opening) Do I have to be in there again?
14 DR. PETERSON: It’s really scary in there, isn’t it?
15 ALICE: I can remember once when I had come back from a meeting, and the next
16   day in P.E. we played a game with blindfolds. It was a chase game, and I
17   wouldn’t let them put the blindfold on me. I screamed and screamed and
18   nobody knew why. And I felt like telling them but I just couldn’t.
19 DR SEWARD: Do you understand that now you can tell and that we’ll believe you? Who’s
20   here besides Claudia? Who else remembers?
21 ALICE: Mandy.
     
    24
     
1 DR. PETERSON: Mandy? It’s nice to meet you, Mandy, I don’t want you to go back. Mandy,
2   you need to know that I know about cult victims; and I know what’s
3   happened to them, and I believe you. And I’d like it if you’ve kind of all
4   been inside and feel like you want to come on up and tell me, and begin to
5   really tell and share so that we can help you. Who else is there, Mandy?
6   Who else knows about what’s happened?
7 ALICE: Brian.
8 DR. PETERSON: Brian? Brian, what do you remember?
9 ALICE: The chamber.
10 DR. PETERSON: Uh, huh.
11 ALICE: It was terrible.
12 DR. PETERSON: What did they do to your body when you were in the chamber? (Inaudible)
13 ALICE: They made you go to sleep.
14 DR. PETERSON: They ever touch your body -- (inaudible) -- what was the reason for being
15   there?
16 ALICE: Because we wouldnĂ­t do what they told us to do.
17 DR. PETERSON: What did they tell you to do?
18 ALICE: To hurt animals and stuff.
19 DR. PETERSON: Who ended up having to hurt animals? Because you always have to do what
20   the cult says, don’t you? Who knows about that?
21 ALICE: I don’t want to talk.
     
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1 DR.PETERSON: Don’t want to talk? Would you write to me?
2   (Tape ends.)
3   TRANSCRIPT OF ALICE SIDE B MARCH 9, 1992
4 ALICE: Chris.
S DR. PETERSON: Chris, Chris, can you write to me? I think there are lots of things that are
6   hard to talk about, aren’t there? Sometimes it helps to be able to draw a
7   picture. Everyone inside needs to hear me. Are you all listening? I’ve been
8   helping cult victims for several years now, and I’ve heard about everything.
9   And I know that everything that has happened are things that you’ve been
10   made to do, or taught to do, that you had to do; no choice, how it must
11   make you feel very bad about yourself and embarrassed and afraid that if you
12   say them out loud, I won’t like you, that I won’t want to be with you; or I’ll
13   call the police. You need to know none of those things are going to happen.
14   You’re a child, and you’re not responsible for what’s happened. No police
15   are coming, and you’re not going to be arrested for anything. That’s all a lie
16   to keep you quiet. And I’ll be right here to listen to you, and the therapists
17   here will listen to you. We believe you. And this is not a trick. Everyone
18   was told it was a trick; even therapists were a trick; or if you talked to
19   someone, they’re really in the cult. They tell that too?
20 ALICE: (Inaudible.)
     
    26
     
1 DR. PETERSON: And then they tell the cult what you said, and you’ll be punished? For
2   telling?
3 ALICE: Yeah.
4 DR. PETERSON: No. That’s not true, not true at all. All my patients tell me all those things
5   and I’m not going to tell and I don’t belong to the cult. I wouldn’t even
6   know who to tell... And this is your chance. I want you-all to understand
7   that you can leave the cult for good. How long have you been -- (inaudible) --
8   to do -- (inaudible) -- that maybe you were told you didn’t have a choice, but
9   you really do. No matter what they said to you or did to you, you have a
10   choice. The choice takes a lot, takes lots of hard work. Are you ready to
11   begin that hard work? It means feeling really scared because you got to get
12   those kinds of feelings out -- (inaudible) -- can you begin to work now?
13 ALICE: (Sniffs)
14 DR. PETERSON: You weren’t allowed to cry; and you can do that all the time if you want, as
15   much as you want. You can have your feelings. It can be over -- (inaudible)
16   -- it’s okay. We don’t punish you when you cry. You’re not going in there
17   when you’re afraid of it. Is that a deal? I’m glad you talked about that.
18 ALICE: Do they lock you in there?
19 DR. PETERSON: No, honey, they don’t. They -- I think they have it locked sometimes when
20   somebody is pushing against the door sometimes or when they are trying to
     
    27
     
1   that’s not the way we -- (inaudible) okay (inaudible) That’s true for some
2   kids. Who’s here?
3 ALICE: Claudia.
4 DR. PETERSON: Is Alice going to know what we talked about?
5 ALICE: (Inaudible.)
6 DR. PETERSON: Okay. Is she blocked out right now?
7 ALICE: Yeah
8 DR. PETERSON: Okay. Does Alice need to be back right now; or would you like to be out,
9   Claudia?
10 ALICE: Yeah?
11 DR PETERSON: You’d like to be out and feel. Okay. If the feelings get real big, would you
12   ask them to call me?
13 ALICE: Yeah.
14 DR. PETERSON: (Inaudible) Ask them to find me.
15 ALICE: Okay.
16 DR. PETERSON: Yeah?
17 ALICE: Okay.
18 DR. PETERSON: Big step today. Big step.
19   (Tape ends.)
     
    28
     

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