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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions

Tape #301, Side A - Date: 2/24/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

DP: Dr. Judith Peterson

RS: Dr. Richard Seward

AB: Alice Brown

(UI) Unintelligible

1   Beginning of tape:
2 RS: ...(inaudible) Alice, that this is the last day I will be your doctor. I’ve asked Dr.
3   Fink to take your case for you --
4 AB: Okay.
5 RS: -- while you’re here. The reason being is that it’s real difficult for me to manage
6   boundaries and things when I have all three of you. Your mom will be seeing Dr.
7   Johnson, and I’ll continue to see Carol.
8 AB: Okay.
9 RS: Dr. -- Dr. Fink will meet with you tomorrow.
10 AB: Okay. Okay.
11 JP: So you all three have different doctors. (pause)
12 AB: Dr. Fink is -- don’t think I’ve ever seen him.
13 RS: He -- he was out of town all last week.
14 AB: Oh, yeah. Okay.
15 RS: He’s back today.
1 RS: He’s back today.
2 AB: Okay
3 RS: He’s got dark hair and he’s got a dark mustache.
4 JP: He’s a tall, handsome guy.
5 AB: That’s Dr. Fink? Okay. I’ve seen him before. He’s tall.
6 JP: Uh-huh.
7 AB: Gosh. (pause)
8 JP: What do you think about that?
9 AB: Cool.
10 JP: Cool?
11 AB: What about unit restriction?
12 JP: It’s amazing how that comes up early.
13 RS: I’m surprised it took her as long as it did.
14 JP: I know. I know. You’re getting slow, Alice. Well, I think it took four minutes.
15   (Pause) Guess we have the same problem. Have you been thinking about it?
16 AB: Uh-huh.
17 JP: Yeah?
18 AB: Yeah.
19 JP: (pause) What have you been thinking about?
1 AB: Just the same old stuff -- that I think I’m safe. I’ve been talking to people. I
2   talked to Laura last night, and I told her I thought I was safe.
3 JP: Who’s Laura?
4 AB: The nurse.
5 JP: Oh, so you’ve been taking a poll about your safety?
6 AB: No.
7 JP: No, I mean have you asked other people?
8 AB: Well, no, not really. But I talked to Laura last night, at dinner, because I ate on
9   the unit.
10 JP: Uh-huh.
11 AB: And she asked me if I thought I was safe, and I said. "Yeah."
12 JP: Uh-huh. How about an inside poll?
13 AB: Huh? I still think I’m safe.
14 JP: How would you be able to figure that out?
15 AB: (Inaudible).
16 JP: I have a sense that nobody has ever kept Alice safe before, (pause) that maybe
17   people have even said it but they haven’t really kept you safe.
18 AB: Um --
19 JP: (Pause) What do you think about that?
20 AB: Mm, mm, mm.
1 JP: Think that’s true?
2 AB: I think I’m safe, yeah. But, I don’t know what -- I don’t -- exactly --
3 JP: I don’t think anybody’s ever kept you safe before.
4 AB: (Pause) Mm. mm, mm.
5 JP: Do you think that’s true?
6 AB: I don’t know. I guess. (pause) (Inaudible).
7 JP: And so how would you know this time -- that maybe you’d be safe, that this time would
8   be different?
9 AB: I don’t know.
10 RS: (Pause) You’ve still got the problem, Alice, that your mom -- your mother said she
11   takes you to cult meetings. Your mother says that you were supposed to go the night
12   you came in here - to be initiated. Your mom said that. Your mom told you that you
13   were involved in the cult. Your mom said that. Do you remember any of that?
14 AB: No.
15 RS: Well, then how -- how do you suppose that we would be able to keep you from meeting
16   somebody and going with them if you were to get off the unit...if you didn’t even know
17   that you went before?
18 AB: Mm, mm, mm.
1 RS: Either that or why would your mom say such a thing? All those things. She keeps
2   saying them. She told us that that necklace that you have is a cult symbol. She said
3   it was like a badge that you were in the cult.
4 JP: And that you belong to the cult.
5 RS: Why would she say such a thing unless it was true?
6 AB: Mm, mm, mm.
7 RS: So how can we help you be safe when you don’t even know the danger you’ve been in?
8 AB: I don’t know.
9 JP: And she says the terrible things that have happened to you is a part of that. You
10   know when you said - remember before when you said that you thought cults were
11   really terrible? Well, she’s listed really terrible things that have happened to both
12   you and Carol, (pause) really bad things.
13 RS: Is she lying?
14 AB: Huh?
15 RS: Is she lying?
16 AB: I don’t know. I don’t remember anything.
17 JP: I wonder if the parts inside that are listening about this could really hear that
18   things are different now, that Mom wants you to be safe and has directly told you --
19   what I think there are parts inside that you already know but that Alice doesn’t know.
20   And that you’re here to figure out your safety -- and not to go back to that. (pause)
1   I wonder if the parts inside know that it’s possible, to not go back, (pause) I wonder
2   if they’re interested in finding out about how to do that.
3 AB: (Inaudible).
4 JP: And wonder what it would be like not to have to go back, to be safe. (pause) And I
5   don’t think Alice knows, I think Alice’s been well protected. But those of you inside
6   have had to take care of it, have had to -- You -- You all know. And if you all can
7   begin to talk about what’s happened, begin to venture out and take a risk so we can
8   help you. But we’re in a real different spot now, as adults around you than when
9   Carol and your mom were in the hospital before And that we understand things
10   at a different level about your family, and that’s why you’re here and you’re not at
11   home. That’s why you’re all here, and that’s why you all can’t see each other. (pause)
12   I wonder if there’s a part that could put Alice away, like you all know how to do, --
13   and put her back in the back, in a safe place, and begin to talk about something,
14   anything, to begin to see what it’s like to come out and talk.
15 RS: Dr. Peterson, I wanted you to know that the first night that I met with Alice, I asked
16   pretty much the same thing and it turned out Alice was still listening and observing.
17 JP: And it’s really important that those parts know that, and that if they can’t -- if
18   they did that that they need to know that they can make it so she doesn’t hear.
19   Because if she doesn’t know anything about what Mom reports and went and did and I
20   believe Mom, I believe that the girl sitting in front of me has been places that she
1   doesn’t remember, that Alice doesn’t remember And if that’s true, then inside there’s
2   a way to make Alice not hear and see for a while, just for a few minutes even, while
3   somebody else comes out and talks. You all know how to do that, you’re in a cult. And
4   Alice still needs protecting right now because it might scare her to hear some things,
5   or scare her right now just to have another part come out because that would be new,
6   although it’s not scary, it just would be different. But you all know how to do that.
7   And you have an opportunity for something really different now. Us people that do
8   this job sometimes take a long time to understand a whole family. We’re still trying
9   to figure it out. I wonder how the parts inside felt before when Mom went to the
10   hospital, and Carol went to the hospital, and Alice was at home -- and she wasn’t
11   being kept safe. I’ll bet there are parts that have feelings about that might be mad
12   at us. And you all inside know how to push her aside, you know how to do it. (pause)
13   What’s happening? (pause) They told you lies about never getting out of the cult. They
14   told you lies about you could never trust a therapist or hospital. They told you lies
15   about they’ll always find you or will know what you’re staying. Those are all lies.
16   Lots of kids your age are learning about the lies
17 RS: (pause) Who’s there? Can you speak? (pause) Can whoever’s there look up and look
18   around at each of the four of us sitting in the room? May I hold your glasses? Keep
19   them safe right over here.
1 JP: Can you check everyone out? Mm, hm. Remember it when you feel the chair you’re sitting in and know that you’re not being abused?
3 AB: Uh-huh.
4 JP: No one’s getting hurt? (pause) Anybody listening? (pause) Can you talk about what
5   you’ve been hearing here today (pause) or about yourself? (pause) Would something
6   bad happen if you talked and if you told us? No? (pause) Do you know about the
7   inside?
8 AB: No.
9 JP: Do you know about you (Very long pause) I wonder what’s happening right now.
10   Is it safe right now, right here? Is that new? I would guess that maybe you’re pretty
11   young. Yeah. Do you know how young you are? No? Younger than Alice?
12 AB: (Inaudible)
13 JP: You’re very brave to come out here and be with us. Did older parts send you out?
14   No? You came out on your own? Very brave. Did you know you’ll be safe when you
15   talk with us, too? Yeah? What did Dr. Seward put on your leg? You know what that
16   is? I wonder what that might be. Want to look at it? No? Do you know what it’s
17   called? Got a guess?
18 AB: Handkerchief.
19 JP: Uh-huh. I don’t think he ironed it. Wait. If you look at the edges closely you can
20   tell if he ironed it. See how they’ think he did? Think he ironed it? Yeah.
1   Do you know about some of the stuff we’ve been talking about? Because you don’t have
2   to talk about it, I was just wondering if you might know? Are you a lot younger than
3   Alice? No? Have you ever wntten in a journal? Do you think you could do that?
4 AB: Yeah.
5 JP: Could you draw a picture?
6 AB: Huh?
7 JP: I wonder if you look around inside, is there anybody near you? Like hiding behind
8   you? Are you sure? You peeked? Around the corners? Well, you’re very brave.
9   Where’s Alice? Put her away somewhere?
10 AB: Huh?
11 JP: Can she hear us? (pause) How does Alice come back? Will vou come and be here
12   again?
13 AB: (Inaudible).
14 JP: Do you have a name, something so we’ll know who to ask for, so we won’t get you
15   mixed up with anybody else?
16 AB: (Inaudible)
17 JP: (pause) Can I just call you the brave girl right now? Are you a girl? I don’t want to
18   make that mistake. Okay. (pause) Hi.
19 AB: Hey. (pause)
20 JP: What’s been going on? (pause) What’s the last thing you remember?
1 AB: (Inaudible).
2 JP: Huh?
3 AB: When how sometimes the people in the cult tell you to send one person away.
4 JP: Uh-huh. And then what happened? (Pause) (Beeping) (Pause) Do you remember
5   that Dr. Seward shared something with you? You didn’t? Somebody did a really good
6   job. Lots and lots of brave things happened today.
7 RS: You know what else? You’re real good at this hypnosis business. You’re a pro.
8 JP: Really is. What do you think of that? Had lots of grownups that try and try and try
9   and never can do it. You’ll always be good at that. (pause) She’s going to end with
10   the same question for me.
11 AB: Can l get off.. .
12 JP & RS: (Laughter)
13 JP: You are great and insistent.

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