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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions

Tape #301, Side A - Date: 2/18/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

RS: Dr. Richard Seward

LA: Brenda Green

PT: Patricia Taylor

(UI) Unintelligible

2 LA: -hospital. Didn’t you do a couple of groups over at
3   Cypress Creek?
4 PT: Oh, were you in those?
5 LA: Uh huh.
6 PT: Oh, okay. That seems like another century ago.
7 LA: I finally got a light in my bathroom.
8 PT: Oh hey. Thank the, well wonders never cease.
9 LA: No more dark showers.
10 PT: I’m going to sit in this chair. This is much more
11   comfortable.
12 RS: Um, we’re at one of those decision points, uh and I need
13   uh for Doris um, to come where we can talk.
14 PT: I need Brenda to be in a safe place.
15 LA: Tell me who you are.
16 RS: I’m Dr. Seward. Have you heard of me?
17 LA: Aren’t you Carol’s doctor?
18 RS: Uh-huh.
19 LA: Okay. Yes, I’ve heard of you.
20 RS: Okay. I’m also the body’s doctor while it’s here at
21   Spring Shadows, at least for the time being. Um, we have,
1   uh, some decisions to make. I understand that um, you
2   have some particular information that bears on the
3   decision that we need to make. Uh, in the process of
4   talking with Protective Services, uh, it was discovered,
5   um, quite unbeknownst to me or the rest of us, that
6   there’s quite a file, um, a very thick file on the Green
7   family. Um, and in the process of trying to understand
8   that and figure that out, it was discovered that today is
9   Alice’s 13th birthday.
10 LA: Uh-huh.
11 RS: And, uh, we need to know now from you, or from anyone else
12   who wants to tell us, what needs to happen for Alice to be
13   safe.
14 LA: I think that she would probably do best and feel most
15   comfortable with B.A.’s mother, if that were possible.
16   don’t know if that’s going to be possible.
17 PS: I don’t know. How will she be safe with B.A.’s mother?
18 LA: She has a very close relationship with B.A.’s mom, a very
19   loving relationship.
20 RS: This being her 13th birthday, how will she be safe in
21   Lafayette?
22 LA: I have no knowledge of any activity in Lafayette. And I
23   don’t believe anyone else does, either.
24 PT: Could you check?
1 LA: No, there was none.
2 PT: Did you live in Lafayette?
3 LA: Yes, but only for about eight months, maybe nine months.
4 PT: What still concerns me is the word that you used last
5   night, which was life-long involvement. So, could you
6   check again just to be sure? This is a very important
7   decision. Where will Alice be most safe?
8 LA: Oh, God. That is such a hard question.
9 PT: Well, you know, let’s talk about it, then.
10 LA: It’s like who do you trust. You know? They can find you
11   no matter where you go.
12 PS: So how will she be safe in Lafayette?
13   (Pause)
14 LA: I just don’t trust anybody anymore. I just don’t know.
15 PS: Well, we need to figure something out because one of the
16   options that we won’t have much control over --- (beeper
17   goes of f)--- is the CPS protective, and again we wouldn’t
18   know anything about if she would be protected from being
19   found, and I’m curious, um, if anyone besides me and Trish
20   and Dr. Peterson is worried about this being her 13th
21   birthday.
22   (Long pause)
23 LA: Yeah.
24 RS: Can you tell me what the fingers are doing right now?
1 LA: It’s just a habit we have, plain, nervous habit.
2 PS: It also keeps your lips quiet.
3 PT: We need to problem-solve about Alice, and there are parts
4   inside who need to talk to help us do that.
5 PS: What about Alice’s 13th birthday?
6 LA: B.A. is going to be home when she gets home from school
7   this afternoon, and they’re going to go out to eat
8   together, (clears throat) and he baked her a cake this
9   morning, and I don’t think he’s planning to come here
10   tonight, so they’ll be together all evening.
11 PS: Doing what?
12 LA: Watching TV. (Pause) Is he abusing her?
13 PS: Someone inside can answer that question.
14 PT: What are you hearing? (Pause) What are you hearing?
15 LA: (Whispers) No. I trusted him. No.
16 PT: Brenda needs to be far away in a safe place, and we need to
17   talk to Doris. Doris, you need to protect Brenda in a way
18   you know how to. What do we need to do about Alice?
19 LA: (Whispers) Get her away.
20   PS: We.. .who is here?
21 LA: Doris.
22 PS: Is Brenda in a safe place? What can you tell us about what
23   you just said?
1 LA: His temper, his anger. It’s, it’s verbal, it’s.., it’s
2   some physical, but sometimes verbal is worse than
3   physical.
4 PS: What’s that got to do with her 13th birthday?
5 LA: I don’t know. (sniffs) (Long pause) When the body was 13
6   the body was pregnant, and the child that was born was
7   killed so it would not be sacrificed. And the child that
8   was born was born seven days after Brenda’s 13th birthday.
9   That’s all I know.
10 PS: Is Alice pregnant?
11 LA: I don’t think so.
12 PS: Then I’m confused. I’m.. .I’m, I’m real confused. Um,
13   things like that happened to the body when it was 13, and
14   we know B.A. has a temper, and it’s been there ever since
15   I’ve known the family. Why would you now say Alice has to
16   be gotten out?
17 LA: To protect her from him.
18 PS: Why? Why now?
19   (Long pause)
20 LA: Because he might hurt her.
21 PS: Why?
22 LA: He might take his anger out on her.
23 PS: What anger?
1 LA: His anger and frustrations at everything that’s going on
2   in his life right now.
3 PS: Why today?
4 LA: Because it’s her birthday.
5 PS: What difference does that make?
6 LA: Because Brenda won’t be there with the family.
7 PS: Why on her birthday would he do that?
8 LA: It wouldn’t have to be just on her birthday, it would be
9   any time.
10 PS: So why now do we have to take her out? Why not yesterday?
11 LA: Because I didn’t know yesterday what I know now.
12 PS: You didn’t?
13 LA: Me, Doris.
14 PS: I’m real confused.
15 LA: How?
16 PS: How do you know it now, but you didn’t know it then?
17 LA: Because people inside told me now.
18 PS: Can I talk to them?
19 LA: They won’t talk to you. They will talk through me.
20 PS: Then I need to know (clears throat) um, why they say today
21   when they didn’t say yesterday that Alice should be
22   removed right now.
23 LA: (sniffs) For two reasons. They say that the cult might
24   try to get to her tonight, and for her safety.
1 PS: What would happen if the cult got to her tonight?
2 LA: We’d probably never see her again.
3 PS: Why is that?
4 LA: They would use her to punish us.
5 PS: For?
6 LA: Turning our backs on them.
7 PS: Why would they come tonight?
8   (Long pause
9 LA: (sniffs) Somebody is telling me that they want her to be
10   initiated tonight.
11 PS: What does that mean?
12 LA: Officially made a part of the cult.
13 PD: What does that mean?
14 LA: It would mean that she would have to give her allegiance
15   to them.
16 PT: How does one give allegiance?
17 LA: Signing a book.
18 PS: So far it sounds like a Girl Scout meeting.
19 PT: Yeah.
20 PS: I’m real confused. Is this okay to happen to Alice?
21 LA: No.
22 PS: Then I’m real puzzled that this is so difficult. I feel
23   like I’m pulling teeth, and I don’t want to do that.
1 LA: You’re asking questions that I can’t answer and I can’t
2   get people to give me straight answers.
3 PS: They need to give straight answers because if it’s not
4   okay for it to happen to Alice, it will happen if they
5   don’t give the answers.
6 LA: They tell me that she will be -- (beeper going off)
7   raped...
8 PT: Go ahead, I’m listening.
9 LA: She will be -- Then she will be the -- the recruiter, or a
10   recruiter, to work with kids her age, to help bring them
11   in.
12 PT: You mentioned last night that she was being, quote,
13   groomed to be a recruiter. Are you saying this is
14   connected?
15 LA: That’s what they’re telling me.
16 PT: How is it connected?
17 LA: She has beer. with some other kids, and this will be like
18   the first time she actually gets to try to bring someone
19   in one on one.
20 PT: Is there anything else that we need to know about her 13th
21   birthday?
22 LA: No.
23 PT: Then what needs to happen? What are they saying inside
24   needs to happen for Alice?
1 LA: She needs to be taken away. But where? Where is safe?
2   There’s no way to guarantee safety, is there?
3 RS: Ask inside and find out.
4 PT: Yeah.
5 LA: God, how do you get away from these people?
6 RS: Ask inside and find out.
7 LA: They say we have to go away. (sniffs)
8 RS: We? With who?
9 LA: All of us.
10 RS: Go where?
11 LA: Change cities.
12 RS: Right now?
13 LA: Soon.
14 RS: Today’s Alice’s 13th birthday. What needs to happen
15   today?
16 LA: (sniffs) She would be safe in Lafayette for a while.
17 PS: How’s she going to get there?
18 LA: (sniffs) Somebody would have to take her.
19 PS: Like who?
20 LA: I don’t know. (Long pause) it wouldn’t be a good idea for
21   B.A. to take her over there.
22 RS: I can’t take her.
1 LA: The only other person that I could possibly think of that
2   might do it, but it would be -- would be a friend of
3   our...of Brenda and B.A.’s, Sherman Waters.
4 RS: You said they go everywhere, even if he is safe and I
5   can’t trust that he is, how would she be safe in Lafayette
6   tonight? I.. .I’m getting confused again. The answers
7   that I’m getting now don’t seem to be safe to me. There
8   are too many questions about safety. I need to ask again,
9   is it important that Alice be safe?
10 LA: Yes, it’s important that she be safe.
11 RS: Is it important that Alice be safe tonight?
12 LA: Yes.
13 RS: What are you going to do? What do you need to do?
14 LA: There are so few people. There’s nobody to trust.
15 RS: Are you safe?
16 LA: Here I am, yes.
17 RS: Is there anybody here that’s safe to trust?
18 LA: Oh she could come to the hospital.
19 RS: Why? How would that be safe?
20 LA: It’s safe here.
21 RS: I’m.. .I’m confused.
22 LA: You’re confusing me.
23 RS: In what way?
24 LA: Because you’re asking me questions
1 RS: Uh-huh.
2 LA: -- and I’m giving you answers --
3 RS: Uh-huh.
4 LA: -- and you keep asking me questions.
5 PS: Uh-huh. - Cause the answers don’t make sense?
6 LA: Is there a safe place for her?
7 PS: I don’t know.
8 LA: Because I don’t know of one besides this hospital.
9 PS: Well, now, I’m real curious that it’s taken us 30 minutes
10   to get to that point if the hospital’s safe. What’s that
11   about?
12 LA: Because I wasn’t thinking in terms of hospitalization.
13 PS: How come?
14 LA: I don’t know.
15 PS: What’s that about? What’s that about?
16 LA: I don’t know.
17 PS: Somebody knows. I’m left with the conclusion that the
18   hospital is somehow felt as unsafe in some way.
19 LA: No, it’s not. It’s just that when we think of Alice, we
20   don’t think in terms of therapy and hospitals.
21 RS: How come?
22 LA: Because up until this point it hasn’t been necessary.
23 RS: You’re telling me that she’s to be initiated tonight as a
24   recruiter in the cult.
1 PT: And last night you talked about being groomed, and the
2   ways in which she was being groomed.
3 PS: And you haven’t thought in terms of therapy. This doesn’t
4   make sense to me.
5 LA: I’m sorry, I still don’t follow what you’re driving at.
6 PS: Why did you finally think of the hospital? What’s that
7   about?
8 LA: I don’t know what it’s about. Isn’t it possible that I
9   just didn’t think about it?
10 PS: I don’t think so.
11 PT: Mm, hm.
12 PS: I wouldn’t believe that it would ever be possible.
13   Because that tells me that Carol’s unsafe.
14 LA: Well, if Carol’s unsafe then Brenda’s unsafe, too.
15 PS: Yeah.
16 LA: So now what do we do?
17 PS: I don’t know. I need for you to tell me.
18 LA: We need to get the hell out of here then, don’t we?
19 PS: I don’t know. How’s that safe? How is this unsafe?
20 LA: It’s not unsafe to me and it’s not unsafe to Brenda; she
21   feels safe here.
22 PS: Okay. What does the system say about whether Carol’s
23   safe?
24 LA: It says that Carol’s safe, too.
1 PS: Then I don’t understand why.
2 PT: Yeah, this is very important that we figure this out.
3 PS: I don’t understand why we didn’t --
4 LA: You mean you think somebody inside tried to keep us from
5   thinking about hospitalization for Alice?
6 PS: Well, that’s one possibility. What do you think?
7 LA: To keep her out to where they could get to her?
8 PS: What about that?
9 PT: Yeah. What do you think about that?
10 LA: What kind of people have I got inside?!
11 PS: Cult people.
12 LA: I’m a monster!
13 PS: No. - -
14 PT: No.
15 LA: That’s it!
16 PS: We can debate that another time. I don’t believe it. We
17   need to concentrate on Alice’s safety.
18 PT: Right.
19 LA: I don’t know of a place that’s safe other than this
20   hospital.
21 RS: So what do we need to do?
22 LA: We need to get her in here.
23 RS: How can we do that?
24 LA: Somebody needs to bring her in.
1 PS: How can we do that?
2 LA: B.A. has no ties.
3 PS: I’ve heard that.
4 LA: Well, let me say that there is no one that we trust.
5 PS: What do you mean BA. has no ties?
6 LA: I mean he’s.. .he’s not involved.
7 PS: With?
8 LA: The cult.
9 PS: What’s that got to do with how we’re going to get Alice in
10   the hospital --
11 LA: He could bring her to the hospital.
12 PS: Okay. How can we accomplish that?
13 LA: We have to get in touch. with him, and he -- I don’t know -
14   we don’t know where he’s working today, but he’s got a
15   beeper.
16 PS: You just told me he was going to meet her when she got out
17   of school.
18 LA: Yeah. And she’ll be home at 3:00. She usually gets home
19   a little after 3:00.
20 RS: How much time do we have to work with?
21 LA: My watch has 2:00. I don’t know if it’s right.
22 PT: It’s close enough.
23 RS: But Im talking about how much time do we have to work
24   with
1 LA: About an hour.
2 PS: -- to make -- to get in touch with B.A. and to get her
3   here?
4 LA: About four hours.
5 PS: By 6:00.
6 LA: That’s what they’re telling me.
7 PT: What about 6:00, how could we arrange that? He could get
8   her here by 6:00?
9 LA: Yeah. She gets home at 3:00. We don’t live that far from
10   here.
11 PT: She’s 13.
12 PS: Is it safe? That was a new question.
13 PT: Well, there is the issue of a doc having to see her.
14 PS: I will have to be back by 6:00 for.. .anyway, so...
15 PT: Okay. So if you got B.A. to get her here by 6:00, then
16   the arrangements could be made through the hospital. I
17   assume there’s insurance. There’s those kinds of things.
18 PS: So what are we going to do for now?
19 LA: I’m going to go call him and try to get a hold of him.
20 PT: Brenda needs to stay protected. Is that true?
21 LA: She’s.. .yeah. . .she’s been out some today but nobody knows
22   anything about what happened last night.
23 RS: I appreciate your help.
24 PT: Thank you, Doris.
1 LA: It’s like pulling teeth getting information out of those
2   people down there.
3 PT: I know.
4 LA: And I’m so sick of it! It pisses me off!
5 PT: Rightfully so.
6 PS: And that’s energy you can conserve and direct toward
7   recovery if you want.
8 LA: Yes, we want to very badly.
9 PS: Then you need to conserve that energy and have it
10   available for the work.
11 LA: Is there hope?
12 PT: Let’s get Alice in here. Do what you --
13 LA: Can we get away from these people?
14 PS: It can be done, yes.
15 LA: Can we keep the family together?
16 PS: It’s possible, but it’s going to be extremely difficult.
17 LA: Oh, God.
18 PT: But you can act on what you know now for Alice today.
19 PS: A step and a day at a time.
20 LA: So they have all the children. It’s not right.
21 PS: Who’s here? Brenda needs to be safe. Brenda needs to be
22   safe. Is she safe? Okay. Who’s here?
23 LA: Doris.
1 PS: And the next step is for Alice to be safe. One step at a
2   time. Conserve that energy to be used for the work.
3   Place that energy somewhere where you can get to it for
4   the work. Are you doing that?
5 LA: I’m trying to relax.
6 PS: Let the energy flow to a storage place that can.. .where it
7   can be used in a safe way for the work.. .as you’re
8   relaxing. Very good. Are you okay? Is the body safe?
9   I’m going to have to stop now.
10 PT: Okay.
11 PS: So you will take the responsibility for making those
12   contacts to get Alice safe by 6:00? Okay?
13 PT: Good.
14 PS: I appreciate your help.
15 PT: Thanks for your help.
16 UF: Did, uh, the nurse give you the form for Brenda?
17 PS: It's on the chart, and I will be back this evening and
18   I'll take care of it.
19 UF: Okay.
20 LA: Thank you.
21 PS: Thank you.
22   (END OF SIDE A)

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