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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions

Tape #300, Side B - Date: 2/17/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

DP: Judith Peterson Ph.D

LA: Brenda Green

PT: Patricia Taylor

(UI) Unintelligible

2 DP: The last time we talked you were going to go down deep and
3   see what you could find out.
4 LA: Uh-huh. And I still haven’t found out anything. Uh, I
5   need to tell you about some things that happened over the
6   weekend that you need to know about.
7 DP: Uh-huh.
8 LA: Um, Saturday afternoon, my husband went to pick up my
9   youngest daughter, Alice --
10 DP: Uh-huh.
11 LA: -- and, uh, Dr. Seward was on the unit and, ah, he
12   brought her in and, um -- I mean my husband did, not Dr.
13   Seward -- and Dr. Seward said that he didn’t think it was
14   a good idea for us to see each other, but that, that had
15   to be my decision. So I told B.A. to take Alice home and
16   he did. And when he came back, Alice had sent me a red
17   carnation --
18 DP: Uh-huh.
19 LA: -- and, well, you saw the flower.
20 DP: And you saw my reaction.
1 LA: Uh-huh. And, ah, I don’t know what it means and I don’t
2   know if it was completely and totally innocent or if it
3   was a signal of some kind.
4 DP: Why don’t you ask inside?
5 LA: I did and I’m not getting any answers. And, ah, I’ve been
6   doing a lot of thinking --
7 DP: Uh-huh.
8 LA: -- and I think that part of the problem is coming from me.
9   On some level I am trying to block this because --
10 DP: You, Brenda.
11 LA: Me, Brenda, yeah.
12 DP: Uh-huh.
13 LA: -- because of all the horror and terror and ugliness
14   that’s involved.
15 DP: Uh-huh.
16 LA: I mean, I know some of it, but I’m beginning to realize
17   just how little I do know. And some part of me cannot
18   deal with that and I don’t know how to proceed from here.
19 DP: Well, your alters need to really hear me. That they know
20   how to put Brenda away. They know how to put her in a place
21   where she doesn’t remember when she’s ever in a place
22   that’s horrible and awful. That’s what disassociation is
23   all about. And for them to be totally helpless about,
24   "Oh, my goodness, what in the world to do with Brenda here
1   in the hospital?" When they are able to do it on the
2   outside whenever they choose to, evidently, or whenever
3   they chose to in the past, finds me not really being real
4   sympathetic, other than to say to those alters that if you
5   really are serious about getting help, you will find a
6   safe place for Brenda to be and you will put her there and
7   then you will come out and you will talk turkey with us
8   about what’s going on or else you will be discharged from
9   the hospital and you will be left with your mess. Because
10   we only help people that can help themselves. We can’t
11   pry a brain open. We can’t entice you. We can’t do
12   whatever. We really need the help of those inside.
13 LA: I understand that.
14 DP: Well, there’s a whole lot of calmness about how much
15   everybody understands that --
16 LA: No, there’s not --
17 DP: -- and it sounds like --
18 LA: -- any calmness.
19 OP: -- and it sounds like your family’s in real jeopardy.
20 LA: I know that and there is --
21 DP: What does that mean, jeopardy?
22 LA: It means that I stand to lose my children and my husband.
23 DP: What do they - what do they stand to lose?
1 LA: They stand to lose their mother -- they may even stand to
2   lose their lives.
3 DP: Who can come out and talk about it and talk about where to
4   put Brenda?
5   (Long Pause)
6 LA: Hello. My name is Lori. I want to talk to you.
7 DP: About what?
8 LA: About where to put Brenda.
9 DP: About where to put her? Why is that a problem?
10 LA: Because she needs to be safe.
11 DP: And why is that a problem? Because again, I’ll go back to
12   the idea, and it’s really something that I have not
13   grasped more recently, and that is that you-all know how
14   to do that. You really do. So do it.
15 LA: So she can’t be out at all?
16 DP: That’s not the point. We’re having a discussion now.
17   There’s a difference between therapy and being out at all.
18 LA: Okay.
19 DP: Big difference.
20 LA: Some of us want to be helped. Some of us don’t.
21 DP: I understand that. So far the ones that don’t want help
22   are succeeding. You’re doing a very good job of not
23   wanting help. And time will run out. And we don’t spend
24   much time with folks who don’t want help and you’re the
1   ones that will have to provide information, because we’re
2   not about to get caught with "Oh my goodness. This was
3   your idea and you’ve separated my family," and all that
4   stuff. So if you-all want help, you-all will have to come
5   out with information about what’s going on because we have
6   no idea. So you need to find a place for Brenda and whoever
7   else can’t tolerate the information, whatever information
8   there is.
9 LA: Okay. I’m in a safe place.
10 DP: That is not a new idea.
11 LA: No.
12 DP: Playing dumb won’t work. It just doesn’t work.
13 LA: Okay.
14 DP: Is she in a safe place?
15 LA: Yes.
16 DP: Well you ought to be able to do that at the beginning of
17   every therapy session. Now, what should happen next?
18 LA: I should begin giving you information.
19 DP: About?
20 LA: What’s going on.
21 DP: Okay. Shoot.
22 LA: In the first place, the involvement has been life-long,
23   just as you said the other night. Her whole entire family
24   was involved, her mother, her father, her brother, on both
1   sides of the family. The worst of it came when she was
2   between the ages of eleven and sixteen. That’s when the
3   children became involved, her children. There were three
4   of them. She only knows about two. Then -- we were in
5   Virginia and Tennessee at that time. There were cousins
6   in Virginia. There were cousins in Tennessee. There was
7   Kay, where we went for the meetings and the rituals.
8   There was a man named Malachi. He kept us with him and he
9   has a successor. We believe there’s a connection in
10   Brenda’s work. There’s a man there, a black man, that we
11   are very suspicious of. His name is Quentin and he’s
12   leaving DHL to go to Compaq. I am not sure if he’s the
13   connection or not. There was involvement with Carol
14   when she was a baby. You know, Carol is Brenda’s oldest
15   daughter.
16 DP: Uh-huh.
17 LA: I’m scared.
18 DP: What are you scared about?
19 LA: What they will do if they find us, if they find out we’ve
20   told.
21 DP: I guess I tell you what I tell all mothers and that is
22   that you take that chance and you, hopefully, give your
23   children the gift of life. And there might be some real
24   important decisions that you might make about safety.
1 LA: But if they go with CPS, couldn’t they be found?
2 DP: Mm, hm. Is the husband involved?
3 LA: No. Brenda’s function was to keep him from knowing anything
4   about it. Brenda Twenty-Nine.
5 DP: How’d she do that?
6 LA: She would hypnotize him, make him go into a deep sleep,
7   and he would never know when we left or when we came back.
8 DP: We meaning?
9 LA: Me and Diana and Brenda and Damian.
10 DP: How about the children?
11 LA: I only know about Carol.
12 DP: Ask inside about Cindy. Is that her name?
13 LA: I’m sorry? I didn’t hear --
14 DP: Is her name Cindy?
15 LA: Cindy?
16 DP: Is that her name, the younger one, your younger daughter?
17 LA: Alice.
18 DP: Alice. Ask inside about Alice. Because she’s, I want
19   everyone to hear me, that she’s hanging out there
20   unprotected, while you and Carol are in the hospital,
21   and that’s real handy.
22 LA: They’re telling me no. I don’t know if they’re telling me
23   the truth, but they’re telling me no.
24 DP: Why would that be?
1 LA: They say no, that Alice’s not involved.
2 DP: Why would that be?
3 LA: That she wouldn’t be involved?
4 DP: Yeah.
5 PT: Especially since you once were life-long involved with it.
6 DP: Yeah. How does that fit?
7 LA: It doesn’t.
8 DP: No, it doesn’t.
9 LA: They’re lying to us.
10 DP: Why?
11 LA: They say because she isn’t very important yet. What does
12   that mean?
13 DP: Why don’t they come out and talk?
14   (Long Pause)
15 LA: She is.
16 DP: She is what?
17 LA: She is a part of it, too.
18 DP: Can they come out and talk about it? Are you out? Hm?
19   What’s her involvement?
20 LA: She’s being groomed to be a recruiter.
21 DP: What does that word "groomed" mean?
22 LA: Programmed.
23 DP: Now, how are people programmed?
24 LA: Different ways.
1 DP: What are the different ways?
2 LA: Hypnosis; electricity; drugs; torture.
3 DP: And is that what’s happening with Carol, too?
4 LA: She’s been given lots of drugs. We’ve been given lots of
5   drugs, too.
6 DP: And shocked, too? Like Alice?
7 LA: And shocked.
8 DP: Carol?
9 LA: I don’t think so. We have.
10 DP: What should happen to get Alice safe? What kind of danger
11   is she in?
12 LA: She needs to be in a safe place, a completely safe place.
13 DP: Who’s talking?
14 LA: Doris.
15 DP: Huh?
16 LA: Doris.
17 DP: Where would a completely safe place be?
18 LA: Is there such a thing?
19 DP: I think this hospital is a safe place. I don’t know if
20   it’s completely safe, but it’s a start.
21 LA: They leave no stone unturned. They’re everywhere.
22 DP: Have you been safe here?
23   (Pause)
24 DP: What happens if Carol and Alice are together?
1 LA: They just fight like sisters.
2 DP: I’m talking about their cult experience. How does that
3   happen?
4 LA: They’re usually kept separate.
5 DP: Does Alice have parts like Carol?
6 LA: I don’t know.
7 DP: Who’s here? Has somebody let Brenda slip out? Because I
8   need Doris back and I need Brenda safe, because we need to
9   find out more to help out the children.
10 LA: (Crying) I just hate it so. It’s such a relief to be
11   able to -- to talk about it. Do you understand that?
12 DP: Uh-huh.
13 LA: Oh, God. If we could just get away from it.
14 DP: Who’s here now?
15 LA: Doris.
16 DP: Doris, does Alice have parts? And electroshocked and
17   drugs and whatever? Tortured? You know Carol has
18   parts.
19 LA: I’m not real sure sometimes, but I think maybe she may
20   have parts.
21 DP: Do you know parts in Carol? Do you talk to certain
22   parts?
23 LA: The only part I really know is Beatrice.
24 DP: Uh-huh. And do you know parts in Alice?
1 LA: No.
2 DP: Are you involved in their programming?
3 LA: No.
4 DP: Well, it’s up to you, as I said the other night when you
5   were in my office, that the decisions you make about the
6   family really need to come from you. That it’s really
7   important. You know you have kleenex right there. You
8   can open and use it if you’d like to. That the choices
9   that you have about safety are yours and, you know, you
10   said you hadn’t been with the cult for some time and I
11   pointed out that I found that remarkable. Then you end up
12   in the hospital that evening -- you and Carol. So
13   somebody inside knows something about involvement, and
14   danger. Is that right?
15 LA: They just -- They make people disappear. That’s what’s so
16 scary.
17 DP: What do you mean?
18 LA: I mean they’re there one day and then the next day they’re
19   not when they try to leave. It’s like they just, poof,
20   they’re gone.
21 DP: Well, you don’t know how they’re gone, do you?
22 LA: No. I don’t know if they’ve been killed or if they’ve
23   been taken away somewhere or what.
24 DP: Or if it’s a trick.
1 LA: Or even -- yeah, because you never know. It’s -- It’s --
2 DP: Mm, hm.
3 LA: It’s all lies and tricks and --
4 DP: Uh-huh.
5 LA: -- and deceit and --
6 DP: Uh-huh.
7 LA: -- and we hate it.
8 DP: What does Alice need to be safe? What is her current
9   danger out there?
10 LA: That somebody will take her.
11 DP: Does she go to places where she gets, these things happen
12   to her you’ve described?
13 LA: Not without us. But, if they...
14 DP: What if you’re not there.. .What if you’re not there? What
15   happens?
16 LA: What?
17 DP: What if you’re not there, like now?
18 LA: Then she might be okay, but I don’t -- I’m not sure. I’m
19   not a hundred percent sure.
20 DP: Well, do you know about what happens when other parents
21   are in the hospital, when you’ve been to cult meetings?
22   Do you know anything about that?
23 LA: No.
1 DP: You don’t know anybody that’s been in the hospital with
2   children? Does anybody else inside? Ask inside.
3   (Pause)
4 LA: They watch the children very closely, and I think they’re
5   trying to find out where we are.
6 DP: Why wouldn’t they know where you are?
7 LA: Because no one knows where I am but my husband --
8 DP: Uh-huh.
9 LA: -- and you guys --
10 DP: Uh-huh.
11 LA: -- and Dr. Billings --
12 DP: Uh-huh.
13 LA: -- and Dr. Seward. Oh, God!
14 DP: What?
15 LA: They do know where I -- where I -- where we are, because
16   work knows I’m in the hospital.
17 DP: Big announcement, huh?
18 LA: Yeah.
19 DP: Uh-huh.
20 LA: Oh, God.
21 DP: Doesn’t make you any more or less safe.
22 LA: I’m safe here.
23 OP: Uh-huh.
24 LA: We feel very safe here.
1 DP: What about Alice?
2 LA: I don’t think she will be. They’ll -- They’ll watch her.
3 DP: Is she programmed in any way to hurt herself?
4   (Long pause)
5 LA: No.
6 DP: What would you suggest be done with Alice? What would you
7   suggest to your husband and to Dr. Seward?
8 LA: We know that B.A. has got to call to CPS tomorrow and
9   speak with the person that called on Friday.
10 DP: Uh-huh.
11 LA: But we --
12 DP: What does that have to do with Alice’s safety?
13 LA: She needs to be safe. Maybe she should come in here.
14 DP: Maybe she should. It doesn’t sound like she’s been able
15   to talk about anything yet. And you, tonight, said how
16   good it felt to be able to begin to talk about things. If
17   Alice felt safe, do you think she would be able to talk
18   about things?
19 LA: She keeps things bottled up inside. I know that.
20 DP: Well, isn’t that the cult way? Carol, too? Well
21   you’ll have to decide about Alice, and it’ll have to be
22   you that makes any calls and makes any decisions about her
23   safety.
24   (Background voices)
1 LA: We decided last night we didn’t want to use the phone.
2 DP: Well, how are you going to communicate with your husband,
3   if you want to? Is he coming to visit?
4 LA: Yes, he’s -- he comes almost every night.
5 DP: Okay. You certainly could use the phone to call Dr.
6   Seward. And I would suggest that maybe you and your
7   husband sit down and talk to Dr. Seward about your
8   concerns about Alice.. .that that would be a reasonable
9   step to take.
10 LA: I think B.A. is -- was supposed to call your office
11   today --
12 DP: Uh-huh.
13 LA: -- to try to set up an appointment with you --
14 DP: Uh-huh.
15 LA: -- for Alice. I don’t know if he did, but Brenda doesn’t
16   know about that.
17 DP: Uh-huh. Who needs to talk to your husband? Does Brenda or
18   you?
19 LA: Um --
20 DP: Does Brenda need to be safely away for a while --
21 LA: Yeah.
22 DP: -- to talk about this? Can you keep her away like you do
23   with the cult?
1 LA: It needs to come either from me or from Betty, because
2   B.A. doesn’t know me.
3 DP: Well --
4 LA: I mean, he’s seen me, but he doesn’t know who I am.
5 DP: Okay.
6 LA: And he knows Betty, and he and Betty have a good
7   relationship.
8 DP: Okay. Well, why don’t we make the next step, then, that
9   you, all that feel like you can talk about Alice’s
10   well-being, that you talk to Dr. Seward and to the husband
11   about what to do about Alice? In the meantime, we will
12   call CPS about the fact that she has been reported by her
13   mother as being electroshocked and drugged -- and
14   tortured. And how current would you say that is?
15 LA: December, before Christmas. I could almost give you an
16   exact date. It was sometime around the -- It was on a
17   Saturday. It was either the 14th or the 15th.
18 DP: Why don’t you ask deep down if there are dates that are
19   even closer to be safe?
20   (Long pause)
21 LA: That was the last time for her.
22 DP: And what about the case at home?
23 LA: No. She’s safe at home.
1 DP: Well, I would find that hard to believe in a cult family,
2   so maybe you better think about that. That’s usually not
3   the case. Because there’s usually parts that have jobs
4   that have to do with that. So you’ll have to think about
5   that and see what you come up with. In terms of learning
6   how to keep your children safe and for you to be together
7   as a family, it’s essential that you work any of that out
8   that’s occurring. I suggest you get a hold of Dr. Seward
9   and your husband and keep Brenda in a safe place since she
10   can’t handle it right now.
11 LA: Okay.
12 DP: And from your vantage point, why don’t you draw a map of
13   what’s it like down deep?
14 LA: I don’t really know how to do that, though.
15 DP: Just draw what you see.
16 LA: Okay. It’s pretty dark down there.
17 DP: Uh-huh. Get a flashlight. A big one.
18 LA: I figured you’d come up with something.
19 DP: The cult turns on the lights and does whatever they want,
20   whenever they want. You can turn the lights on, too. You
21   have that power.
22 LA: Can I talk to you about something else?
23 DP: What is that?
24 LA: Brenda can’t pray anymore.
1 DP: What’s that about, do you think?
2 LA: But she’s very upset about it.
3 DP: Is somebody stopping her?
4 LA: Possibly.
5 DP: Did you check inside about that?
6 LA: No, I haven’t, but I will.
7 DP: Could you check inside now?
8 LA: Oh, yes.
9 DP: What’s happening?
10 LA: It’s Damian. He’s stopping her.
11 DP: Why?
12 LA: We hold back.
13 DP: Damian may need to know that -- You’re the only losers.
14   And God sees your soul no matter what, and prays for you
15   no matter what. You haven’t the foggiest piece of power
16   to stop the Lord’s influence. You’re like a tiny little
17   gnat with a great big giant. Because you know Satan’s a
18   fiction. Or did anybody tell you that? Damian hear me?
19 LA: He’s hearing you. Thank you.
20 DP: You’re welcome. I always think about all these people,
21   you know, that have to mess around and make all these
22   altars and do all this stuff and make all these saints and
23   all this junk, all about, um, one little baby who was born
24   2,000 years ago. Why don’t you-all think about that?
1   There’s something wrong with the equation and you-all have
2   to do all of that and everybody else has to do all that
3   and you say the cult’s everywhere. It doesn’t affect the
4   Lord one bit. It just affects y’all. You’ve got your
5   power in the wrong place, Damian. You guys figure out
6   what you want to do. We know what we have to do in terms
7   of reporting.

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