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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape: Video - Date: 2/13/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

BILLINGS: Thomas Billings

PETERSON: Judith Peterson Ph.D

ADNEY: Brenda Green

(UI) Unintelligible


Beginning of tape.

     
1   (Several minutes of silence)
2 BILLINGS: An interesting picture, isn’t it?
3 GREEN: Mmm hmmm.
4   (Pause)
5 BILLINGS: Hello, there.
6 PETERSON: Hi.
7 GREEN: Hi.
8   (Door closes)
9 BILLINGS: How are you?
10 PETERSON: Fine. How are you?
11 BILLINGS: Fine.
12 PETERSON: It’s good to see you. Hello.
13 GREEN: Good to see you.
14 PETERSON: Good to see you. I haven’t seen you in a long,
15   long time. It’s been several months.
16 GREEN: Mmm hmmm.
17 PETERSON: Well, what’s going on? How can I help you today?
18 GREEN: Did you tell her anything? Um, we believe that
19   there is a possibility that there is current
20   activity, cult activity, going on and there seems
21   to be a link between my system and my daughter’s
     
    1
     
1   system that has stopped her working with her
2   therapist.
3 PETERSON: Okay. I need you to sign a release so I can talk
4   to. DR. BILLINGS, even though he’s sitting right
5   here.
6 GREEN: I didn’t sign it?
7 PETERSON: No. And to DR. SEWARD.
8 GREEN: Okay.
9 PETERSON: (UI)... a pen? That’s a, a real problem if, uh,
10   things are getting blocked, isn’t it?
11   (Pause)
12 ADNEY: Do you want me to sign this one, too, DR.
13   PETERSON?
14 PETERSON: Um hmmm. (Pause) Thanks.
15 PETERSON: And then put DR. SEWARD’s name here? And DR.
16   BILLINGS?
17 GREEN: Mm, hm.
18 PETERSON: Okay. Who do you think would know inside about
19   current cult activity?
20 GREEN: Possibly a new one that we found out about in the
21   last three or four weeks.
22 Peterson: Uh huh.
23 GREEN: And her name is BRENDA.
24 PETERSON: And her name is BRENDA?
     
    2
     
1 GREEN: Um hmmm.
2 PETERSON: And who am I talking to right now?
3 GREEN: You’re talking to BRENDA, the host.
4 PETERSON: BRENDA the host? And how old is BRENDA, the new one?
5   New to you?
6 GREEN: About 29, I think, somewhere around there.
7 PETERSON: Okay. Is she listening?
8 GREEN: Um hmmm.
9 PETERSON: Could I talk with her?
10 GREEN: She’s in a safe place.
11 PETERSON: Is it safe for her to come out and talk?
12 ADNEY: I think so.
13 PETERSON: Okay. Cause that’s real important.
14 GREEN: Um hmmm.
15 PETERSON: Feeling safe. I have three rules here. Do you
16   know what they are? Everybody listening? All the
17   way down? That you don’t hurt yourself. And you
18   don’t hurt me or Dr. Billings. And that you don’t
19   throw furniture.
20 GREEN: (laughs) You don’t have to worry about that.
21 PETERSON: Are those three easy rules?
22 GREEN: Um hmmm. Real easy.
23 PETERSON: Okay. Could I talk to BRENDA 29?
24 GREEN: Um hmmm.
     
    3
     
1 PETERSON: (UI)...tell me when she’s here.
2 GREEN: (UI)
3 PETERSON: It sounds like you have some important
4   information.
5 GREEN: It’s okay.
6 PETERSON: Do you know who I am?
7 GREEN: You’re DR. PETERSON, right?
8 PETERSON: Um hmmm. What happens if you tell people about
9   things?
10 ADNEY: Sometimes we’re punished.
11 PETERSON: How are you punished?
12 GREEN: Headaches.
13 PETERSON: Headaches?
14 GREEN: I have headaches.
15 PETERSON: So there are parts inside that make the head hurt?
16   Okay. Uh, are those parts listening?
17 GREEN: Possibly.
18 PETERSON: I hope they are. I’m especially interested in
19   people who make headaches. Is everybody
20   listening?
21 GREEN: They’re listening.
22 PETERSON: They’re watching, too, aren’t they?
23 GREEN: Yeah.
     
    4
     
1 PETERSON: Would they have even more information? Would they
2   be able to talk to me?
3 GREEN: They might have more information, but I don’t
4   think they’ll talk. Not yet, anyway.
5 PETERSON: Not yet? And what would happen ask them for me
6   okay? What would happen if they were to talk?
7 GREEN: Then everybody would know.
8 PETERSON: And what does that mean, everybody would know?
9 GREEN: Everybody would know what’s going on.
10 PETERSON: Everybody on the inside? Or the outside?
11 GREEN: And the outside.
12 PETERSON: And the outside. How does that work?
13 GREEN: Because if they talk to you then you would know,
14   and DR. BILLINGS would know and everybody would
15   know.
16 PETERSON: Is that everybody?
17 GREEN: What do you mean?
18 PETERSON: Would anybody outside this room find out, because
19   I think he and I would keep things. Would those
20   parts have to tell other people, if they talk
21   here?
22 GREEN: Not necessarily.
23 PETERSON: So they could keep things here with us?
24 GREEN: Um hmmm.
     
    5
     
1 PETERSON: Okay. Well, what would stop them then, from
2   coming out and talking?
3 GREEN: Fear.
4 PETERSON: They’re (UI) afraid (UI).
5 GREEN: They don’t trust everybody yet. (clears throat)
6 PETERSON: What would it take for them to trust? And the
7   reason I ask, I want everyone to hear me, is I
8   think it, it sounds to me, your safety, your
9   daughter’s safety, uh, that that’s really an issue
10   here. And I have all these strong feelings about
11   safety. I would really like your time here to be
12   very helpful. You can problem solve about safety
13   or otherwise the issues might be very complicated.
14   And I wonder if you’ve ever been somewhere where
15   you can really focus on what’s going on. And
16   sometimes, parts down deep that make headaches,
17   make other things to keep everyone quiet, and
18   maybe sometimes you have to take great big leaps
19   and trust. Somebody I worked with at one time
20   said those are the Grand Canyons of therapy.
21 GREEN: I like that.
22 PETERSON: Uh huh. Or it may feel like that. Because I know
23   that you don’t know me. And I’m asking a great
     
    6
     
1   deal. They could also talk through you as they
2   trust you and see.
3 GREEN: I’m not sure they do.
4 PETERSON: Um hmmm.
5 GREEN: Because we left them. And we, we signed a pact
6   and agreed in our contract renouncing our
7   activities. We turned our back on em.
8 PETERSON: Um hmmm.
9 GREEN: And they’re angry.
10 PETERSON: Well, I don’t blame em. Did you leave them
11   there?
12 GREEN: We left the third level.
13 PETERSON: They must feel really bad.
14 GREEN: They think we’re traitors.
15 PETERSON: Um hmmm. Did they talk to you about that?
16 GREEN: They’ve been looking for me and they haven’t been
17   able to find me.
18 PETERSON: Would they talk to me about that? About how you
19   left? Would that be all right?
20 GREEN: She was sneaky.
21 PETERSON: Was she?
22 GREEN: Yes.
23 PETERSON: What happened?
24 GREEN: She didn’t say a word to anybody. She just left.
     
    7
     
1 PETERSON: And where did she leave you?
2 GREEN She left us alone and didn’t tell us where she was
3   going. We haven’t been able to find her.
4 PETERSON: What would happen if you found her?
5 GREEN: We’d ask her why. Why she turned her back on us.
6 PETERSON: Is she important to you?
7 GREEN: In a way.
8 PETERSON: What makes her important?
9 ADNEY: She can do things for us.
10 PETERSON: What?
11 GREEN: She can help us to get other people to cooperate.
12   Mainly BRENDA’s husband.
13 PETERSON: Cooperate in what way?
14 GREEN: She can get him to go into a deep sleep so he
15   doesn’t know she’s gone.
16 PETERSON: You can’t do that?
17 ADNEY: No.
18 PETERSON: How come?
19 GREEN: Well, I suppose I could, I’ve never tried. It’s
20   always been her.
21 PETERSON: What’s your job?
22 GREEN: I just do whatever they want me to do.
23 PETERSON: Who’s "they"?
24 GREEN: The cult.
     
    8
     
1 PETERSON: When was the last time you were with the cult?
2 GREEN: Right before Christmas.
3 PETERSON: Do you know where you were? Was it near or far
4   away?
5 GREEN: A pretty good piece. In the country, in the
6   woods.
7 PETERSON: Does DINAH (phonetic) go?
8 GREEN: Sometimes.
9 PETERSON: What would happen if you didn’t go?
10 GREEN: They’d come looking’ for us. They may already be
11   looking for us.
12 PETERSON: Why?
13 GREEN: Cause we didn’t go last time.
14 PETERSON: When was last time?
15 GREEN: A week or so ago.
16 PETERSON: When’s next time?
17 GREEN: They haven’t let us know yet.
18 PETERSON: You talk with fingers? Yeah? Could I talk with
19   them? Have you been watching how it’s done or do
20   you do it yourself?
21 GREEN: Most of the time my eyes are closed.
22 PETERSON: Who’s here now?
23 GREEN: BRENDA, the host.
24 PETERSON: What happened?
     
    9
     
1 GREEN: I don’t know.
2 PETERSON: Were you listening?
3 GREEN: Um hmmm.
4 PETERSON: What do you think of being here?
5 GREEN: It scares me to death.
6 PETERSON: Can you let yourself go all the way down, and let
7   me know when everyone’s listening (UI) finger?
8   (pause) And then go even deeper and let me see
9   "yes" all the way down. Let yourselves fall down,
10   layer after layer. Deeper and deeper. Down into
11   the subconscious. Sometimes people fall in
12   circles, spiraling. And let me see "no." And I
13   would like to ask the fingers if there are parts
14   that have trouble telling the truth. And I’m
15   wondering if those parts would be willing, as we
16   talk about safety issues today, if they would be
17   willing to move to the left hand. Parts that
18   either have trouble with the truth or haven’t been
19   able to tell things that are true. That’s the only
20   way they know. I’m thinking ...(UI)...Now, could
21   you give me a signal (UI). (UI)...okay....only
22   ones over there. Now, the only ones that can tell
23   the truth are on the right hand. Had you done
24   that before?
     
    10
     
1 GREEN: Not exactly. Something like that.
2 PETERSON: Something like that?
3 GREEN: Um hmm.
4 PETERSON: So can I see a "no" on the right hand? Okay. I’d
5   like to ask if perhaps there might be other parts
6   in there.
7 ADNEY: There’s only three we know about.
8 PETERSON: Uh huh. I’m wondering if there might be deeper
9   layers that can talk with leaders. And I’d like
10   to ask if people really talk about what’s
11   happening, especially if uh, if it meant
12   punishment. Is there punishment on the inside?
13   And how about on the outside? Is there somebody
14   down deep that could come out that maybe DR.
15   BILLINGS has never met? That’s maybe down from
16   very, very deep. That would be able to talk about
17   what’s going on. I wonder if you’re at a choice
18   point. And that it’s okay to come out. Even if
19   you were to go back to the cult. That it’s your
20   life and no one can stop you. And I recognize
21   myself, I know how powerless I am. But you need
22   to know...(UI). I wonder who’s the part that can
23   come out of the body. Some of you are so powerful
24   you can’t come out. That’s not very much power.
     
    11
     
1   Are you powerful enough? Did they tell you you
2   were? Do you lose power if you come out here?
3   It’s too bad you don’t have enough to spare.
4 GREEN: I don’t want to talk to you.
5 PETERSON: How come?
6 GREEN: Because I’m afraid.
7 PETERSON: Never talked to non-cult people before?
8 GREEN: No.
9 PETERSON: What would happen?
10 GREEN: I don’t know.
11 PETERSON: You wanna give it a try?
12 GREEN: Okay.
13 PETERSON: Can you tell me your name?
14 GREEN: ANDREW.
15 PETERSON: Can you tell me where you live, ANDREW? Where
16 inside?
17 ADNEY: Fourth level.
18 PETERSON: How many levels do you think there are?
19 GREEN: Four, I think.
20 PETERSON: How long has the body been in the cult, ANDREW?
21 GREEN: A long time.
22 PETERSON: Since she was little?
23 GREEN: Since she was 12, 11, somewhere around in there.
24 PETERSON: Um hmmm. Who abused her before then?
     
    12
     
1 GREEN: Excuse me?
2 PETERSON: Who abused her before then?
3 GREEN: Her father.
4 PETERSON: Was he in the cult?
5 ADNEY: Yes.
6 PETERSON: But she didn’t go to the cult before eleven or
7   twelve? And which of you thinks I believe that?
8 GREEN: What did you say?
9 PETERSON: I said which of you, all of you inside, think I
10   believe you? I think that’s absolutely
11   preposterous.
12 GREEN: You think it was before that time. I don’t know
13   about it.
14 PETERSON: Who does?
15 GREEN: I don’t know.
16 PETERSON: Is everyone listening? I want everyone to hear
17   me. It’s preposterous that you have only your
18   layers or levels. That’s very simple. You’re
19   here for a consultation. You’re wasting my time.
20   It’s preposterous to think that if a daughter was
21   involved, that she wasn’t involved until she was
22   eleven or twelve. I never heard of such a thing.
23   Never heard of such a thing. And evidently none
24   of you really cared enough, about the daughter or
     
    13
     
1   other children, or whatever. Other than to show
2   me that you don’t tell the truth. Now if you have
3   another reason, if you really want to make some
4   changes and problem solve, then I’ll talk turkey
5   with people that are willing to talk to me about
6   what’s really going on. But you’re wasting my
7   time to throw out an ANDREW. So I’m gonna sit
8   here now and see what you do.
9 GREEN: Her father was not always in the cult. His
10   involvement in the cult started, oh, probably two
11   years before BRENDA started in it. No one knew
12   about it. Not even his wife. BRENDA’s mother. He
13   kept his activities totally secret. She was
14   brought in at eleven or twelve.
15   (Pause)
16 PETERSON: Where’s Satan?
17 GREEN: In Hell, I hope.
18 PETERSON: Do you have a hell inside?
19 GREEN: No.
20 PETERSON: Everyone else I’ve ever met does.
21 GREEN: Yes, I do.
22 PETERSON: You know, DR. BILLINGS, I think that you have a
23   patient that’s a sociopath. Which is probably
     
    14
     
1   more difficult than a patient that’s a cult
2   victim. Because she can’t tell the truth.
3 BILLINGS: Um hmmm.
4 PETERSON: And then when someone suggests something she just
5   goes along with it.
6 BILLINGS: Um hmmm.
7 PETERSON: And so there’s nobody willing to come out, to
8 really say what’s happening. And I think that the
9   sense of wanting to help her... (UI) ... the fiction.
10 That for whatever reason, whatever’s happening
11   with her is more important than being honest, at
12   least here, I don’t know if she’s honest with you.
13   But she’s certainly not honest with me.
14 GREEN: What’s going on?
15 PETERSON: Who’s here now?
16 GREEN: BRENDA.
17 PETERSON: What do you think?
18 BILLINGS: Her answers are consistent with things that she’s
19 said to me.
20 PETERSON: Um hmmm.
21 BILLINGS: Certainly, real level of suspicion about
22   truthfulness and interrupting treatment.
23 PETERSON: Um hmmm.
     
    15
     
1 BILLINGS: Recently, as recently as the last few days, DR.
2   SEWARD gave, uh, special note, uh, to, uh, her
3   daughter stating that she was, uh, showing many
4   signs of a sore throat and he was fearful of a
5   strep infection and because of the complications
6   of that wanted her to see a physician. And, that,
7   that nothing was done about that. That was last
8   week. And, uh, I believe his, uh, Tuesday morning
9   a statement was made before the Tuesday afternoon
10   session that the daughter ought to do something
11   about scheduling an appointment.
12 PETERSON: Mm, hm. (UI)
13 BILLINGS: Uh, according to a report from BRENDA this
14   afternoon, uh, the daughter has TIC and not
15   supposed to eat any solid food. But then all of
16   this was, of course, just kinda neglected.
17   There’s been an increase in alcohol abuse by her
18   husband, which BRENDA has been colluding with, even
19   though it’s very destructive to the daughter.
20 PETERSON: One of the things that’s very important to know is
21   that uh, everybody’s listening all the time.
22 BILLINGS: Um hmmm.
     
    16
     
1 PETERSON: And my sense is that, um, they’re watching a game
2   go on. And that’s really sad. I really feel badly
3   for you. All of you.
4 GREEN: What can I do?
5 PETERSON: Well, I really don’t know. Uh, if you’re really
6   very concerned, ub, which I’m not sure you are,
7   but if you really are, and I’m, I’m talking to
8   everybody all the way down, BRENDA, I’m not just
9   talking to you. Okay? I know that’s hard for the
10   host to understand, okay? So I’m talking to
11   everybody. If you really wanted help and weren’t
12   doing uh, wish-upon-a-star therapy or make-believe
13   therapy, which is what I have a sense that, that
14   you have going here. But, and it’s sad, because
15   you have a wonderful, wonderful therapist, that
16   all you would have to do would be to turn to him
17   and tell him the truth. And if there was anything
18   possible that he could do, he would help you. But
19   the parts inside, you all, you’re not telling Dr.
20   BILLINGS the truth. I won’t go any further
21   because you’re lying to your doctor. And I know
22   too much about cults to not know that immediately.
23   So you don’t really want me to know anything, to
24   even offer suggestions to DR. BILLINGS, so if
     
    17
     
1   there was something he doesn’t know that I could
2   help out with in consultation, that would help you
3   be safe and your family be safe, you’re not even
4   willing to do that. So you are making a choice.
5   You are preferring cult activity. Now, of course,
6   I can’t prove that. And so, how old is your
7   daughter?
8 GREEN: Sixteen.
9 PETERSON: And you have other children?
10 GREEN: I have one other daughter at home.
11 PETERSON: And how old is she?
12 GREEN: Thirteen.
13 PETERSON: Well, that’s a good age. And so I guess they’ll
14   go on and be thoroughly abused.
15 GREEN: I can’t believe these people are doing this to me.
16 PETERSON: Well, if you wanted to stop it, what you would
17   voluntarily do is suggest your children be placed
l8   out of your home immediately. As the beginning of
19   changing things dramatically, and letting everyone
20   down deep know is, that things are going to
21   change. Because if you really believe that things
22   are happening that send you to places where there
23   are horrible things happening, and that your
24   daughters are involved a lot. As far as I’m
     
    18
     
1   concerned, if a child’s hair is touched on their
2   head, I’m, I’m horribly, horribly upset. Let
3   alone anything more than that. And you would at
4   least rescue them. Someone would come forward
S   about that. And they don’t. They sit here.
6 BILLINGS: There are alters that have confessed to going to
7   the, like the December meeting, that recognized
8   the daughter, that know that the daughter was
9   there. But it was an alter that was present and
10   they had talked about that. BRENDA was not entirely
11   aware of that.
12 PETERSON: Well, are they telling you that, then TOM, for you
13   to be able to then call CPS and go ahead and make
14   a report.
15 BILLINGS: That I don’t know.
16 PETERSON: Because that would be the first thing to do and to
17   make the assumption that both girls are involved
18   and to make the suggestion that they be removed
19   from home. Uh, as the first step. And then, then
20   perhaps therapy could proceed. Because if they’re
21   telling you that, then uh, you can only go on, on
22   what they’re telling you.
23 BILLINGS: Mm, hm.
     
    19
     
1 PETERSON: And, uh, I would think that you would be concerned
2   enough, BRENDA, that you would want them to leave
3   home until you’re sure they are safe. Without
4   your even having to know all the details yet. And
s   my, my concern would be that you do that
6   voluntarily.
7 GREEN: I would call CPS?
8 PETERSON: That you call CPS. And I have lots of reasons for
9   that. One of the reasons is that one of the
10   things the cult would like to do is then to have
11   said that, "Well, I don’t know why she came here,
12   and it was really all DR. PETERSON’s idea. And
13   there’s really nothing wrong with her children or
14   family, and DR. PETERSON or DR. BILLINGS have
15   caused her family to be disrupted and pulled
16   apart, and have caused great emotional trauma."
17   And since no one can really prove cult activity,
18   then I think it’s essential that this be something
19   that BRENDA would convince her husband, and would
20   suggest and demand and help the children to be
21   removed from the home so that they would be
22   rescued. And then maybe parts would come forward
23   inside BRENDA about how she could be safe. Because
24   maybe they need to relocate. Maybe they need to
     
    20
     
1   disappear. But you see, none of that could ever
2   be worked out without them coming forward about
3   their safety issues. And I don’t whether they
4   know that sometimes people just do that. I don’t
5   know how connected your husband is to living here
6   and connected to you.
7 GREEN: I hadn’t thought about disappearing. I didn’t
8   know you could do that.
9 PETERSON: Yeah, we help people and, and we don’t do it very
10   often, but uh, and DR. BILLINGS could find out
11   about it. There’s a lot, there’s even a book out
12   about how to change your identity. You can get it
13   at the library. How to get a new social security
14   number and how to do things if you really want to
15   go away. I’m not saying it’s fool-proof, I’m not
16   saying there isn’t danger, but it sounds to me
17   like you’re already in danger. See, I don’t
18   believe that you’re waiting to hear, you know you
19   didn’t, is BRENDA still here?
20 GREEN: Um hmmm.
21 PETERSON: Um, I want everyone inside to, to really hear me.
22   I don’t believe that the next date you’re suppose
23   to be there is ah, in a while. Only you here
24   again? It’s tonight. Tomorrow’s the 14th. Maybe
     
    21
     
1   it’s tomorrow night. Cause you know they like to
2   do things on Friday night, cause they work.
3 BILLINGS: Um hmmm.
4 PETERSON: It’s like everybody, every other group, you know,
5   they don’t wanna go to work all tired on Friday’s
6   so maybe it’s tomorrow night. Valentine’s Day, so
7   I’ve heard, is a big day. So it’s not a while
8   from now. If, if the alters inside are going to a
9   meeting.
10 GREEN: So I need to get CATHY out of there real fast.
11   Like within the next twenty-four hours.
12 PETERSON: Well, I think that if you believe that she is in
13   danger, that any mother would do that. If she’s
14   in danger for any reason. But you have two
15   daughters. And there’s one that’s not in
16   treatment, is that right?
17 GREEN: Right.
±8 PETERSON: What about her?
19 GREEN: DEIDRA ASPAN has worked with her a couple of
20   times, and uh, she said that she really didn’t
21   think that ALICE was involved.
22 PETERSON: Say that again?
23 GREEN: She didn’t think that ALICE was involved or that
24   ALICE was being abused.
     
    22
     
1 PETERSON: Who said that?
2 GREEN: DEIDRA. DR. SEWARD had suggested that at a family
3   meeting we had back in December.
4 PETERSON: Well, how would DEIDRA know? You don’t look very
5   involved.
6 GREEN: That’s true.
7 PETERSON: You don’t look very abused. I can’t tell. That’s
8   why I’m saying, can you tell that she looks
9   abused?
10 BILLINGS: No, not at all. But I certainly have my
11   suspicions about how just one or two selected
12   members of the family can be involved.
13 PETERSON: It doesn’t work that way.
14 BILLINGS: I know.
15 PETERSON: (laughs) Un-unh.
16 BILLINGS: And the thought of the other daughter not being
17   involved, to me just, ah, even though no statement
18   has been made, it just seems to me ah, highly
19   improbable...
20 PETERSON: Mm, hm.
21 BILLINGS: .. . if not impossible for the entire family not to
22   be involved at some level. The statements
23   consisted, consistently have been made that the
24   husband was put into a deep sleep and ah, that
     
    23
     
1   BRENDA was able to control that. Uh, I don’t, uh, I
2   know that’s possible. But I don’t know if that’s
3   happening or if he is also involved.
4 PETERSON: Can somebody anonymously tell me how he’s put into
5   a deep sleep? And can somebody stop triggering
  not to talk and get your hand off your face?
7   Completely off your face and off your throat?
8   Thank you.
9 GREEN: Nobody’s answering.
10 PETERSON: Do you know about those signals? As in this being
11   don’t talk, I’ll cut your throat.
12 GREEN: (UI)
13 PETERSON: I wonder if everyone’s real scared.
14 GREEN: I know I am, if everybody else isn’t. I am.
15 PETERSON: (UI). Is husband real connected?
16 GREEN: Yeah. We’re real close.
17 PETERSON: And is he real connected to the cult?
18 GREEN: I don’t think so. I could be wrong there, too.
19   just don’t know.
20 PETERSON: You see, if he isn’t, then it’s really up to you
21   all to convince him of the danger and to figure
22   out how to really begin to help your family and
23   get the daughters safe. I’m wondering if deep
24   down inside, that if you do anything with the
     
    24
     
1   daughters, that you’re in danger. And I want you
2   to listen inside. There are lots of reasons why,
3   even though mothers want to help, they don’t, they
4   can’t help, because they’ve been threatened.
5 GREEN: I don’t care about me. I just care about
6   CAROL.
7 PETERSON: No. No. I hear you. But I want to know, because
8   that’s one of the really important things that Dr.
9   BILLINGS needs to know. Is whether this body is
10   being threatened, if you guys do anything.
11 GREEN: (UI)
12 PETERSON: No, I believe you’re not being threatened right
13   now sitting on this couch. I’m not gonna hurt
14   you, and DR. BILLINGS isn’t gonna hurt you. I
15   would like BRENDA 29 to come back out.
16 GREEN: Can not believe it.
17 PETERSON: Has this body been threatened about anything
18   changed, anything changing with the host?
19 GREEN: No. I had no reason to suspect anything.
20 PETERSON: Why not?
21 ADNEY: (clears throat) Because no one’s told me
22   anything.
23 PETERSON: No one’s told you (UI) the cult? Have they
24   threatened that if you talk to DR. BILLINGS about
     
    25
     
1   things, that something will happen? To DR.
2   BILLINGS perhaps?
3 GREEN: No.
4 PETERSON: Do you report the content of therapy? What do you
5   think should happen to the cult?
6 GREEN: I think they need to leave.
7 PETERSON: What do you think would happen with your therapy
8   if they were living somewhere else for awhile?
9 GREEN: I don’t know. It’s a real problem.
10 PETERSON: Well, I wonder if they would feel easier talking
11   if they felt safe. That’s what I’m wondering
12   about. If, is it CAROL?
13 GREEN: I hadn’t thought of that. Yeah that, that might
14   (UI)
15 PETERSON: Well, I mean, do you think that might help
16   clarify?
Li GREEN: It could. Yeah.
18 PETERSON: Because, I guess, as I’m kinda problem-solving,
19   I’m problem-solving out loud. And so I think
20   that, uh, you and DR. SEWARD need to talk to the
21   family. But it strikes me that one of the ways to
22   sort this out is for the family to agree to a
23   period of time, that the girls would be somewhere
24   very safe and in intensive therapy, to give them
     
    26
     
1   an opportunity to be able to come forward with
2   what’s going on with then and begin to deal with
3   that. And then that would help answer questions
4   about what’s going on. And that maybe that would
5   help your husband in terms of a temporary thing,
6   not a permanent thing and help him with more
7   information as the girls learn more about what’s
8   going on with themselves.
9 GREEN: Yeah.
10 PETERSON: And my guess is that CAROL, uh, has a lot that
11   she doesn’t know about herself probably...
12 GREEN: Mm, hm.
13 PETERSON: . . .and that, the younger one, what’s her name?
14 ADNEY: ALICE.
15 PETERSON: ALICE, maybe, doesn’t know at all. And may be for
16   some strange reason that there’s nothing going on
17   with her. But if you give her the opportunity,
18   what do you think that ALICE’s, uh, reaction would
19   be?
20 GREEN: She would probably be very upset. She and I are
21   very, very close. She’s the baby of the family.
22 PETERSON: Is there a place she could be really safe?
23 GREEN: The only place that I could think of, and I, I
24   don’t know how safe it would be because we lived
     
    27
     
1   there for a while, would be with BA’s mother in
2   Lafayette. But we did live with her for about six
3   weeks, six months.
4 BILLINGS: But wasn’t, uh, your family also from Louisiana?
5 GREEN: Um hmmm.
6 BILLINGS: And wasn’t...
7 GREEN: Right.
8 BILLINGS: .. .the family also cult active in Louisiana?
9 GREEN: Yeah. So that’s not a good idea at all.
10 PETERSON: Are there placements through churches, TOM, you
11   could recommend?
12 BILLINGS: It’s a possibility but with, in a way with some
13   type of cult activity, that would be very hard, I
14   suspect. We could certainly try.
15 PETERSON: The other would be, do you have any insurance in
16   terms of residential placement?
17 GREEN: Not that I know of.
18 PETERSON: Because that would be the other thing, would be
19   some kind of residential help, where there would
20   be real good supervision.
21 BILLINGS: If that’s possible. I think that would be
22   advisable.
23 PETERSON: It would really help them to really have
24   permission...
     
    28
     
1 BILLINGS: Um hmmm.
2 PETERSON: ... to feel that they could begin to unravel
3   things.
4 BILLINGS: Um hmmm.
5 PETERSON: I wonder BRENDA, whether you think of all of them
6   inside, if the girls were unsafe? Cause, see, I
7   have a sense that, whether or not you’re able to
8   tell me today, that that’s probably a threat.
9 BILLINGS: The presence of the girls in their home?
10 PETERSON: That they’re used as a threat. That, I’ll bet you
11   that there are parts inside BRENDA that might. And
12   see, that would affect her therapy, too.
13 BILLINGS: Yeah.
14 PETERSON: You might see a real difference if the girls were
15   safe.
16 BILLINGS: Okay, my sense has been that we were beginning
17   with BRENDA 29, and with a couple of others coming
18   up from the levels below because the body was
19   immediately punished right after that session on
20   Friday evening, a very long weekend with migraine
21   headaches and she wasn’t even able to get out of
22   bed, and this has been within the last couple of
23   weeks. And, uh, so, we know there is punishment
24   that goes on.
     
    29
     
1 PETERSON: I wonder if those parts that are, are doing that
2   really know that there might be a chance for
3   change.
4 GREEN: I don’t know.
5 PETERSON: What I’m really asking is to just really hear
6   that. All the way down.
7 BILLINGS: And I think DIANA has also spoken today. DIANA
8   has been one that was looking and involved in, and
9   doing some work with internal punishment.
:0 PETERSON: Is DIANA nearby? Can I talk to DIANA?
11 GREEN: Yes.
12 PETERSON: Is DIANA here?
13 GREEN: Yes.
14 PETERSON: Can you tell me what level you are?
15 GREEN: Third.
16 PETERSON: How were you made? (UI) answer.
17 GREEN: I came to be when BRENDA was 15.
18 PETERSON: In what way?
19 GREEN: (clears throat)
20 PETERSON: DIANA?
21 GREEN: Yes.
22 PETERSON: I know about how all DIANAs are made. And you’re
23   right, this is a test. To see if there is anybody
24   inside that can tell me the truth?
     
    30
     
1 GREEN: My name is DIANA.
2 PETERSON: Uh-huh. That doesn’t mean you tell the truth
3   though. Now, I just wanted you to hear that
4   before you answer the question about how you were
5   made. That I know how DIANAs are made. I’ve met
6   many, many DIANAs. What do you think of that?
7 GREEN: It confuses me.
8 PETERSON: Okay. Tell me about...
9 GREEN: I didn’t know a name had significance.
10 PETERSON: It might. I’ve met one in every cult victim.
11 GREEN: Really?
12 PETERSON: Um hmmm. They’re usually very important. Are you
13   important?
14 GREEN: Somewhat.
15 PETERSON: What are you in charge of?
16 GREEN: Getting her to the rituals and meetings.
17 PETERSON: And how were you made?
18 GREEN: Why is that so important?
19 PETERSON: Why don’t you want to tell me?
20 GREEN: Because, what I said before was true.
21 PETERSON: What’s that?
22 GREEN: That I came to be when BRENDA was 15.
     
    31
     
1 PETERSON: And why don’t you want to tell me how you were
2   made? Why should DR. BILLINGS bother, in helping
3   you, DIANA? If you can’t start to be honest.
4 GREEN: Because I don’t know.
5 PETERSON: Don’t know what?
6 GREEN: How to answer your question.
7 PETERSON: Want to have it be multiple choice?
8 GREEN: You don’t like me, do you?
9 PETERSON: I’m real confused, because most people, even
10   though they hate to say it, are able to tell me
11   whether they were born by anal intercourse, or
12   pins up their fingers, or whatever it was, that
13   made them. And I guess I’m really concerned. Urn,
14   time with people, you know, they have very little
15   time (UI). Time with DR. BILLINGS is very
16   precious. You’re very, very fortunate, all of
17   you. And my sense of what you’re willing to
18   share, and be honest about it, I’m confused about
19   why you’re in therapy. Does BRENDA just drag you
20   along?
21 GREEN: This is the first time.
22 PETERSON: First time?
23 GREEN: To come out in therapy. And the first thing you
24   said was how I was formed.
     
    32
     
1 PETERSON: Yes.
2 GREEN: Anal intercourse.
3 PETERSON: I think they’re programmed to, just to agree with
4   anything you say.
5 BILLINGS: Mm, hm.
6 PETERSON: I don’t know if you’re a person to do therapy
7   with. I think that’s really sad to say.
8 BILLINGS: Mm, hm.
9 PETERSON: I really do.
10 BILLINGS: I agree every answer she’s given you has been
11   whatever you suggested to her.
12 PETERSON: Yeah.
13 BILLINGS: A high degree of suggestibility is something that
14   I’ve noticed all the way through.
15 PETERSON: Oh, yeah. And that, it’s sorta like a mirror,
16   because that’s, I hate to tell you that’s probably
17   the wrong answer, I didn’t tell you what I think
18   it may be. My concern is, is uh, is that uh, she
19   seems kind of robotic.
20 BILLINGS: Um hmmm.
21 PETERSON: And that her humanness has been stolen. She can
22   get it back with you. But I don’t know anybody
23   who’s willing do it. And that’s, that’s really
24   sad. Somebody’s trying to connect because they’re
     
    33
     
1   in therapy. You’ve been seeing DR. BILLINGS for a
2   long time now, haven’t you?
3 GREEN: Well, what throws me for a loop is up to this
4   point everybody’s been, for the most part,
5   cooperative.
6 PETERSON: Well, what you need to know, and I think that
7   maybe DR. BILLINGS has figured it out, is that, I
8   think on the whole, that as long as you stay kinda
  on the surface with alters, that that’s how it
18   goes. And then when you get down to the stuff
11   that is life and death, that the parts inside that
12   are very, very protective of you, that don’t want
13   you to die, that have always been there so you
14   won’t die, and that way their motivation is very
15   good. They want to keep the body alive and
6   probably the girls alive so that when you
17   threatened that at all, and then I have certainly
18   threatened that today...
19 BILLINGS: Mm, hm.
20 PETERSON: .. .then everybody, um, acts aloft and stays
21   closed, shut down, and you’ve all succeeded in not
22   giving me any information. I want everyone to
23   know you were successful today. That you handled
24   this very well as a good cult member. You did a
     
    34
     
1   real good job. Because I want everyone to know
2   that if anyone has to report that, that I didn’t
3   gain any information because you all just repeated
4   what I said. And in repeating what I said, um,
5   is, in fact (UI). That that was a good way for
6   you to get through this. I think that there’s a
7   tremendous amount of threat and that they had to
8   cop out. And I think you need to really get your
9   girls safe. I don’t know if there’s an easy
10   answer for that.
11 GREEN: I don’t either.
12 PETERSON: How do you determine at the end of a session that
13   she’s safe and not gonna hurt herself and all
14   that?
15 BILLINGS: Okay. In the last couple of times when I’ve
16   talked with BRENDA 29, uh, she has felt that she was
17   a threat by no longer being with the folks on the
18   third level. So she went into a voluntary kind of
19   hiding place that she developed where she could
20   both see and hear what was going on. There was no
21   one to hurt.
22 PETERSON: Okay.
23 BILLINGS: And, uh, uh, the feeling recently has been that it
24   was her coming that was threatening to the system.
     
    35
     
1   And so she has voluntarily, uh, kind of hidden
2   herself and other than that the feeling was that
3   things were safe. And, um, that was really the
4   first, uh, the migraine headaches were the first
5   really sign that anything had been going on to
6   kind of reach down to a, a deeper level and begin
7   to be a little bit threatening. So that, that’s
8   what we’ve done as well as just kind of keep
9   things suspended the last couple of weeks knowing
10   that we were going to have this meeting, and we
11   wanted to keep things safe. We also have a safety
12   committee that, uh, is composed of both male and
13   female alters that has uh, to my knowledge, been
14   doing a good job. The other day,apparently DIANA
15   tried to take over driving the car, and, uh, they
16   wrestled control back from her and got her safely
17   home. We have, uh, someone else from the third
18   level that has uh, uh, an awareness and real, a
19   real suspicion about folks, uh, and cult
20   activities and he’s responsible if he thinks
21   anything is going on for ringing the bell to warn
22   BRENDA that something may be happening so that she
23   can get herself immediately out of that situation.
24   So those were some of the things that we’ve done,
     
    36
     
1   as well as checking at the end of each session to
2   make sure that BRENDA the host is back with me.
3   Just ordinary kinds of things to, to check on,
4   making sure that the, she is somewhat out of
5   trance and BRENDA’s back.
6 PETERSON: And what, what would need to happen now?
7 ADNEY: I’m here.
8 PETERSON: For safety? Is BRENDA 29 back in her (UI)?
9 GREEN: Mm, hm.
10 PETERSON: Have, has um, CAROL been directly talked with
11   about what you suspect?
12 GREEN: I haven’t talked to her about it. U....
13 PETERSON: What about other parts?
14 GREEN: I don’t know. I think that she and DR. SEWARD
15   might have discussed it. But I’m not even sure
16   about that. Because the meeting that we had back
17   in December was the first time it was brought up with
18   her present.
19 PETERSON: And what was her reaction?
20 GREEN: She just sort of sat there.
21 PETERSON: So it sounds like she’s waiting for you to take
22   action.
23 GREEN: I guess so.
     
    37
     
1 PETERSON: Because you can do a lot of different ways, you
2   all could meet and the first thing could be that,
3   is suggest that CAROL get safe and see what
4   happens with that. And then the next thing might
5   be the second child. But I think that, uh,
6   nothing will change unless you all make changes.
7   That you have a wonderful group of professionals,
8   but they don’t know what to do if y’all don’t tell
9   them. And there are lots of things you can do
10   find out about, about perhaps trying to get safe
11   and the cult will never tell you about it.
12   They’re kind of opposed, I think, to safety.
13 GREEN: It seems like it.
14 PETERSON: That’s what I’ve heard. It’s a rumor. So you’d
15   have to have parts come out that are, see, I think
16   that she must have some parts that are very, very
17   sharp and could really help problem-solve...
18 BILLINGS: Mm, hm.
19 PETERSON: . .. if they wanted to and to figure out a way to
20   make it, that the cult wouldn’t know what you’re
21   talking about. That they really could do that.
22   Does the cult think women are very important?
23 GREEN: Not really, no.
     
    38
     
1 PETERSON: I’ve heard it’s a real chauvinistic organization.
2   I mostly work with women and they are, lots of
3   alters think they’re male. And that’s because
4   that’s supposed to give them some power. Have you
5   talked about that?
6 BILLINGS: A little bit, yes.
7 PETERSON: Because...
8 BILLILNGS: Not recently.
9 PETERSON: . . . it’s a real fooler. And lots of times that’s a
10   real motivator inside and everybody realizes how
11   much they’ve been fooled...
12 BILLINGS: Mm, hm.
13 PETERSON: ... and they never will receive, you know, gain
14   status...
15 BILLINGS: Right.
16 PETERSON: . . .like they’re told and that really helps them
17   begin to make a list of the lies, and that’s one
18   of the big ones.
19 BILLINGS: Mm, hm.
20 PETERSON: And there are a whole lot of them. But one of the
21   real biggies is that they never will be powerful
22   because, ....
23 BILLINGS: Because they’re female.
     
    39
     
1 PETERSON: Yeah. And they can pretend they’re male and they
2   can have male names and whatever, but I think
3   that’s a real, uh, missing link in the cult’s
4   thinking is that they don’t address female’s needs
5   and they don’t, and they don’t allow for any power
6   without pretending they’re male. I think that
7   alters down deep need to really hear that, that
8   there’s a way for them, the most powerful thing in
9   the world would be for you to leave the cult.
10 GREEN: That’s what I want.
11 PETERSON: You’ve gotta, you’ve gotta go down, BRENDA. DR.
12   BILLINGS can help you with that, too. Go down in
13   trance and you go down there and the heck with
14   this three or four layer business. I’ve never
15   seen it. And you go down, way down deep, and
16   visit with those down there and tell them how
17   you’re feeling. And he’ll help you back up. You
18   hold his hand, you ever done that? So you know
19   you can come back? Well, I wonder if DR. BILLINGS
20   would be willing to hold your hand so that you
21   know you can reach right back up to him, because
22   it’s real scary to go way down deep. And talk to
23   those down there and decide what you’re gonna do.
24   And let them know, too, what it feels like to be
     
    40
     
1   offered support in a new way. And sometimes they
2   need that hand held so they can feel it and know
3   it’s really real. And he’s really real. And he
4   really will help you. And if you guys start
5   telling the truth and I hear that from DR.
6   BILLINGS, then I will be available to consult and
7   help out with safety issues if there’s questions
8   DR. BILLINGS has. But I help truth tellers. Like
9   I help people who didn’t throw furniture, you guys
10   did a really good job today.
11 GREEN: (Laughs)
12 PETERSON: All the furniture’s still here, even my bunnies
13   and my bears, they are all still here. So you
14   guys did a really good job. But now you gotta
15   tell the truth. And that’s tough.
16 GREEN: I feel like I’ve run smack into a brick wall.
17 PETERSON: You’ve run into a brick wall? You may feel like
18   that right now. But all everybody on the other
19   side has to do is just remove one brick and peek
20   out and see this world out here and know that it’s
21   really real, and people really do leave cults.
22   It’s hard. And you might even get tortured. You
23   ever told that might happen? And I wonder if
     
    41
     
1   those down deep know that that’s already happened.
2   So what have you got to lose?
3 GREEN: (UI)
4 PETERSON: Sorry (UI).
5 BILLINGS: Thank you for your time.
6 PETERSON: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Let me know...
7 BILLINGS: Okay.
8 PETERSON: .. .what happens.
9 BILLINGS: I need to take, across the street, I’ve got some
10   things to do.
11 GREEN: Thanks Dr. BILLINGS. Dr. PETERSON thank you for
12   your time.
13 PETERSON: You’re welcome.
14   (door closes)
     
    42
     
     

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