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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions

Tape #392, Side B - Date: 10/22/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

DAVIS: Sylvia Davis

BROWN: Alice Brown

2 DAVIS: I’m not sure, unless Paige was going to do the family therapy with you,
3   that you will be doing family therapy today...
4 BROWN: Uh, huh.
5 DAVIS: . . .because Debbie is sick.
6 BROWN Uh, huh.
7 DAVIS: She’s not sick. She’s had a family emergency.
8 BROWN Uh, huh.
9 DAVIS: So, um, did anybody tell you about that?
10 BROWN: No.
11 DAVIS: My assumption is that the session will be ca...canceled.
12 BROWN: Will we have one at all this week?
13 DAVIS: Very unlikely, given that I’m going to be out of town tomorrow and that
14   Debbie is not expected back that quick, so it probably will be scheduled for
15   next week.
16 BROWN: All right.
17 DAVIS: Had you had anything you wanted to do there today
18 BROWN. I don’t think so. I was just going to kind of see what came up.
1 DAVIS: What came up?
2 BROWN: No, just kind of see if anything did come up.
3 DAVIS: From whom?
4 BROWN: Yeah.
5 DAVIS: From whom?
6 BROWN: From Mom.
7 DAVIS: From Mom?
8 BROWN: Yeah, or from Carol.
9 DAVIS: Huh.
10 BROWN: But, I hadn’t, I kind of just wanted to talk about discharge and stuff like
11   that and how, how scared I am about it.
12 DAVIS: Uh, huh. With them?
13 BROWN Yeah.
14 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
15 BROWN: And kind of talk a little bit about what the separation is going to be like...
16 DAVIS: Mm, hm.
17 BROWN . . . because Carol and I have been on the same unit now for a month.
18 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
19 BROWN And it’s going to be difficult for me to leave, you know, and not see her
20   again.
21 DAVIS: But, you. or some other parts who have been triggered by her, it might turn
1   out to be a good thing.
2 BROWN: Yeah. But I, as Alice, am really going to miss her.
3 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
4 BROWN: Yeah.
5 DAVIS: Yeah. I think it’s appropriate to start your terminating process with them
6   because it might be, you know, a while before you get to see them again
7   after you do discharge
8 BROWN: And I kind of feel like, you know, I’ve been here for a while and...
9 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
10 BROWN: ...everything, and my mom has missed so much. I feel like I’ve changed,
11   and she’s missed so much...
12 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
13 BROWN: ...of that.
14 DAVIS: What do you want to tell her about your changes?
15 BROWN I don’t really feel like she knows me anymore.
16 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
17 BROWN: Just that, you know, I’m 13 now and I feel like I’m older, you know, and
18   I’m making more decisions for myself now.
19 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
20 BROWN: And it’s hard not to have a mother (inaudible).
21 DAVIS: Uh, huh. But some of your parts might think it might be pretty easy not to
1   have an abuser with you. (UI) That will be something you will need for them.
2 BROWN: Yeah.
3 DAVIS: Is the original Alice here?
4 BROWN: Yeah. And I think that maybe when, when I go to my residence or
5   somewhere that maybe I can live in a house and learn what a real mother’s
6   supposed to be.
7 DAVIS: Well, I think probably you knew what a real mom was supposed to be like,
8   didn’t you, except for, and what a real dad was supposed to be like, except or
9   when they do drink, or do, you know, ordinary abuse, fighting and stuff
10   (inaudible):
11 BROWN: Uh, huh.
12 DAVIS: So even you were coming from a dysfunctional family.
13 BROWN: Yeah.
14 DAVIS: Even you, your memories have that.
15 BROWN Yeah.
16 DAVIS: And so, it might not be a bad thing for you to focus on that for a few years
17   with your new parents, whoever it’s going to be, what is it like being, uh, a
18   child of an alcoholic? What’s it like being given yourself uh, drugs yourself
19   when you’re a kid? Do you have any memory of that? Has it been shared with
20   you yet?
1 BROWN: Uh, huh.
2 DAVIS: Do you realize that you’ll probably be pretty susceptible to being an
3   alcoholic if you drink?
4 BROWN: Yeah.
5 DAVIS Uh, huh. Or a drug addict if you do any of those things?
6 BROWN: (Inaudible)
7 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
8 BROWN: (UI) in school. . .
9 DAVIS: Mm, hm. So those are things...and plus just kind of learning how to trust
10   people that you’re going to be with for a few years.
11 BROWN. Uh, huh.
12 DAVIS: Or maybe until you graduate. Those things will keep you very busy, even
13   if you’re not working on the dissociated stuff. I do, I do hope that lots of
14   your parts will be invited to be observing and learning with you about what
15   this other life is like.
16 BROWN: They’re scared that when they go to this residential place, some of them,
17   you know, they’re scared that it’s going to be like they’re not going to be
18   sober anymore and they’re gonna get drugged again.
19 DAVIS: Uh, huh. Or going to be drugged again?
20 BROWN Or they’ll take drugs again
21 DAVIS: Well, I don’t think, think CPS really makes any money off selling drugs to
1   kids or anything, so I don’t think that you’ll be drugged. Now whether or
2   not they take drugs will certainly be an interesting thing to work on.
3   Would you like to add that to your list, that there would be drug
4   counseling because I have taken drugs and been drugged in the past?
5 BROWN: Yeah.
6 DAVIS: Why don’t you write that on your sheet right now of things that you
7   want?
8 BROWN: (Inaudible) I was going to call Alice tonight, Alice...
9 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
10 BROWN: ...tonight and see if she wanted to talk to me about thatÖ
11 DAVIS: Maybe you ought to turn the corner down on that so you could find it
12   easier. Do you need counseling for sexual abuse? Have you had enough
13   memories of that? Do you have enough, uh...yeah? And if you want
14   somebody to teach you what being a good mother and a good dad is about,
15   then maybe you ought to write that so that they know that you want
16   somebody who will be there for the long run.
17   (Long pause)
18 BROWN: (Inaudible)
19 DAVIS: Uh, huh. And you could, should ask her specifically, maybe, can you get,
20   she get you a class that has all this stuff.
21 BROWN: Is, is it (inaudible)? Is it going to be like.. .I don’t know how to ask this
22   question. (Inaudible) Never mind. I’ll think of it.
1 DAVIS: Well, just stumble around with it and maybe I can ma. ..make guesses and
2   help you get it out.
3 BROWN: Is it going to be like a place where other kids are there that are going to be
4   there for a long time?
5 DAVIS: I think so.
6 BROWN: Or is it going to be like...?
7 DAVIS: Where people are coming and going all the time What do you want it to
8   be?
9 BROWN: Well, I really didn’t think about that very much.
10 DAVIS: Why don’t you ask her that? You should write that down as a question.
11   Are you going to need bars on the window to keep your parts from going
12   out and hunting for cult meetings?
13 BROWN: I’m gonna have to think about that.
14 DAVIS: Oh.
15 BROWN: I think I want it that way, though.
16 DAVIS: Huh?
17 BROWN: I think I want it that way, though.
18 DAVIS: Oh.
19 BROWN: Or windows like that.
18 DAVIS: Windows that lock so you can’t get out.
20 BROWN: I’ll think about that later.
1 DAVIS: So your mind is focused really on this pretty much?
2 BROWN: And about my dad.
3 DAVIS: What about him now
4 BROWN: Just the same old stuff I’m angry at him. I told Dr. Walling today when I
5   talked to him
6 DAVIS: Mm,hm.
7 BROWN: . . .that I was really mad at him.
8 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
9 BROWN: And I hated him. I hated what he did to my family.
10 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
11 BROWN: And I told him that I didn’t like that all this stuff happened and now that
12   we have to be separated for a while. But if I think about it, it wasn’t all my
13   step dad. I can’t blame it all on him.
14 DAVIS: No. There were two people, or so your mom says, who came from cult
15   families. Both of them. So, you know.
16 BROWN: It just doesn’t make any sense, though, that he doesn’t want to get out. I
17   mean, he’s resisting it.
18 DAVIS: It doesn’t?
19 BROWN: Well, it doesn’t for me, you know, because I thought he was a good
20   person It doesn’t make sense anymore just to stay that way.
21 DAVIS: Mm, hm.
1 BROWN: It’s’s sick.
2 DAVIS: But you know some parts that want to stay that way.
3 GAUTHTER: Yeah. But, still, I mean. . .
4 DAVIS: So his parts are, his parts that want to stay with, uh, these activities that
5   you all describe, the pornography and the abuse and so on, are stronger
6   than the ones who don’t.
7 BROWN: It’s sad.
8 DAVIS: Yeah. It’s kind of sad for him. He’s in his 40’s somewhere, isn’t he?
9   Pushing 50?
10 BROWN: Forty.
11 DAVIS: Uh, huh. Is it going to be sad for you, too? .
12 BROWN: No, because I want to go back into therapy when I’m older. I don’t want
13   to stay...I don’t want to stay like this. I mean, I, I th...I don’t know. My, I
14   see myself you know, staying a teenager forever. I don’t ever picture
15   myself having my own house and driving my own car. I always picture
16   somebody taking care of me.
17 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
18 BROWN: And it’s, it’s weird, because, I mean, I have never pictured myself as an
19   adult, never.
20 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
21 BROWN: I don’t know why.
1 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
2 BROWN: It’s just never happened. That is so weird. And, you know, other people
3   say, "Well, you know, when I grow up, blah, blah, blah," you know.
4 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
5 BROWN: Stuff like that. And I say, "Well, I can only see myself in college."
6 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
7 BROWN: And even when I see myself in college, I’m still living with somebody and
8   somebody’s still taking care of me.
9 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
10 BROWN: I never see myself driving I never see myself living by myself I never see
11   myself you know, getting married or anything like that.
12 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
13 BROWN: I always see myself being taken care of by somebody.
14 DAVIS: Uh huh.
15 BROWN: And that is so weird, and I don’t know why. I don’t know why it’s that
16   way. Did you ever have problems seeing yourself as an adult?
17 DAVIS: No, to tell you the truth. But I’ve heard of other people that that was true
18   of.
19 BROWN: Oh. I don’t understand why. It’s kind of like, I really don’t want to get
20   older.
21 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
1 BROWN: You know?
2 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
3 BROWN: I wonder if it’s that way for my sister, too. But she’s told me that she sees
4   herself as an adult...
5 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
6 BROWN: And growing up and having a job and, you know, all that stuff
7 DAVIS: Uh, huh. I don’t know, maybe some of your parts inside know about that.
8   It may be that you really are not interested in being an adult and that, uh,
9   on some unconscious level, it’s just, like you said, you don’t want to do
10   that
11 BROWN: But, I know I can’t stay 15, or whatever, forever. I mean, it’s just not
12   going to happen.
13 DAVIS: Well, but there’s something to be said for taking things one day at a time
14   and one year at a time also.
15 BROWN: Maybe it’s because my dad always drove into my head that I didn’t have to
16   think that far ahead. I don’t know.
17 DAVIS: Really?
18 BROWN: Yeah.
19 DAVIS: What was that about
20 BROWN: Well, I used to talk about, once in a while I would say, you know’, "I want
21   to go to Texas A&M," or whatever, you know, and he’d say. ...
1 DAVIS: Mm,hm.
2 BROWN: ... "Well, you don’t need to be thinking about that. You’re not going there
3   any time soon. Think about today and tomorrow and, you know, being in
4   high school," or something, whatever. And I’d be like, "Why?," you know.
5   I don’t know. Maybe that has something to do with it.
6 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
7 BROWN: I don’t know.
8 DAVIS: When you were a little girl, you don’t remember wanting to grow up and
9   be a mommy?
10 BROWN: No. I remember growing, wanting to grow up and be like my older sister.
11 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
12 BROWN: And grow up and be like, you know, have a boyfriend and wear makeup
13   and stuff. But, I don’t ever remember dreaming of having a husband or
14   having a baby or anything.
15 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
16 BROWN: I never played with dolls when I was little very much at all.
17 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
18 BROWN: And that’s, I guess maybe that’s because I, my mom was never real for me
19   very much.
20 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
21 BROWN: Maybe that has something to do with it. I don’t know.
1 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
2 BROWN: It’s just so weird.
3 DAVIS: Well, it’s a curious thing. That’s funny because I was wondering about
4   some future projection kinds of things myself, like I’ve been thinking a lot
5   about your parts that haven’t come into therapy.
6 BROWN: Yeah?
7 DAVIS: And what they’ll feel like isolated someplace away with no contact with
8   anybody that’s cult. No way to get to meetings, missing anniversaries and
9   holidays and chances to be special and missing chances to be abused and so
10   on. I wonder what that’s going to be like for those that really believe in the
11   cult philosophy. To be away from all of that.
12 BROWN: It will probably be real, make them real angry .
13 DAVIS: Would they like to have a turn in therapy today, I wonder?
14 BROWN: Some of them do. (Inaudible)
15 DAVIS: Uh, huh. Will it be okay to give them a little turn now? Shall I put the pen
16   up here, what do you think? So it doesn’t get, you know, pulverized when
17   they squeeze it or something. Wonder if the deepest, deepest parts who
18   really invest to go on and believe in cult messages and wonder what they’re
19   thinking about with the State of Texas filing to have you all some place
20   away and not have any contact with family members, maybe even an
21   assumed name or something. I’m just wondering what they feel about the
1   prospect of having the next five years away from meetings and away from
2   anybody else who would know what the signals would be. Missing the
3   holidays, the rituals. How are you all dealing with this? Hi! Thanks for
4   coming. Would you like to talk about this a little bit? Can I help you
5   figure out how it’s going to be for you?
6 BROWN: I hate it.
7 DAVIS: You’re going to hate it? How come?
8 BROWN: Because I want to go back.
9 DAVIS: Uh, huh. What will you miss?
10 BROWN: Being special.
11 DAVIS: Being special. Tell me about how special you are. How they helped you
12   feel special. Can you? Just (UI), I’m not asking for secrets, I’m just
13   asking what did they do that made you feel special and important?
14 BROWN: I got a crown.
15 DAVIS: Uh, huh. Is it in storage now or something?
16 BROWN: I don’t know.
17 DAVIS: Is it your own personal crown
18 BROWN: I don’t know.
19 DAVIS: Wait a minute. If it’s not your own personal crown, how special can it be
18   if you just pass this around from head to head?
20 BROWN: It wasn’t passed around.
1 DAVIS: Were you the only one ever to use that crown?
2 BROWN: Yes.
3 DAVIS: What happened to it after?
4 BROWN: They took it away.
5 DAVIS: How do you know it wasn’t used for somebody else then?
6 BROWN: I don’t know.
7 DAVIS: Oh, I see, like the Queen and Princess of England and all, all those folks,
8   when they had a crown, that’s their crown. They made new crowns for
9   them. Was it a pretty crown? Gold or silver or...? Yeah? Jewels? Uh,
10   huh. What else?
11 BROWN: That’s all.
12 DAVIS: Just a crown?
13 BROWN: That’s the only attention I ever got.
14 DAVIS: Uh, huh. Are you aware that regular people sometimes get to have things
15   that are special.
16 BROWN: What do you mean?
17 DAVIS: Well, for example, when I was in high school, well, I got pinned for
18   National Merit Honor Society, okay. That meant that I had such good
19   grades and I was one of the top ones at school for grades for, you know,
20   smarts. And, so, I had a pin and I could wear it on my sweater, and so
21   everybody knew that I was one of those. I was special, and I didn’t even
1   have to keep it a secret. People could look at it and know, "She’s smart
2   She gets good grades." Um, when I was in third grade, I’m skipping back
3   a little bit now, I got an award, a ribbon, and it said third prize on it. I still
4   have it. Okay, and it was third prize for a poster that I drew, a poppy
5   poster contest for Veteran’s Day. You know how.. .I don’t know, maybe
6   you haven’t been around where kids and adults would sell paper poppies,
7   red poppies, for Veterans, to raise money for Veterans who had been hurt
8   in the war. And they had a contest and I did a poster and I got an award
9   for it. I got my name in the newspaper for everybody to read. That I was
10   a good artist and put together a good poster. And, then also when I was in
11   high school, I did art work that was submitted to contests, and I got
12   awards for my art work. Sometimes first place, sometimes second,
13   sometimes special merit. And these were neat things to have.
14 BROWN: Uh, huh.
15 DAVIS: I also, for a while, belonged to a girls’ organization, and we had little comb
16   tiaras, small crowns, that you could wear with formals. And you got to
17   give speeches when people would be coming into the girls’ club and stuff,
18   and then we’d take your promise of office and stuff like that. And we
19   could invite boys to come to our dances and stuff. Let’s see, what other
20   kinds of awards were there? Shoot, there were awards for writing. There
21   were, sometimes there were awards at the school for good work of this and
1   that. Awards for service. service organizations have awards also. People
2   can keep these awards and put them on their wall. As a matter of fact, the
3   walls of my office have my certifications and so on, which means that the
4   State of Texas approves me to be a license professional counselor. It
5   means that the American Board of Examiners approves me to be a psycho
6   dramatist anywhere in the world, that’s all over the world. I’ve got one
7   that helps me, that says that I’m qualified to help people with addiction
8   problems. I got another one that says I’m qualified for family therapy.
9   These are like certificates of importance in the profession Dr. Peterson, of
10   course, got a real hot one that says she’s a Ph.D. There’s an award in our
11   profession I hope somebody in our practice will get one day. It’s the
12   Wilbur Cornelius Award for contribution to the field of multiple personality
13   disorders. Cornelia Wilbur was a lady, she was the author of like, The
14   Three Faces of Eve. You know that book?
15 BROWN: Uh, huh.
16 DAVIS: Okay. So she was one of the first people to discover multiple personality
17   disorders. And how people get it from early age trauma. And so every
18   year at the conference in Chicago. somebody gets a big award for kind of
19   contributing to knowledge in the field about multiples and how special they
20   are. So I just would like for you to know there are lots of ways to feel
21   special other than the one that you’re using now. And you are a bright and
1   talented and attractive young lady Now, I don’t know why you can’t earn
2   yourself as many awards and march in as many parades and get as much
3   special honors and badges and ribbons and crowns and hoopla as you could
4   possibly want. You may have to give up one kind but you could get
5   another kind if you wanted to. And you might even find that the other kind
6   would be better because you could show it around to people. I mean,
7   when you got the crown with the cult, would you get to go to school and
8   say, "Hey, I got a crown last night?" What is the fun of being special if
9   nobody notices? Will you help me understand that?
10 BROWN: It doesn’t make any sense.
11 DAVIS: It doesn’t make sense at all. I’m special, boy. I want people congratulating
12   me and say, "Hey, heard you got the award. Let me see your badge and let
13   me see your pin," and, "J read about you in the newspaper. I’m so glad for
14   you," and, "Oh, I’m so jealous. I worked so hard to get that and you got
15   it." No fun to be special and nobody knows it.
16 BROWN: Uh, huh. They knew it.
17 DAVIS: Who?
18 BROWN: Mom and Dad and Rick, Carol and Rick.
19 DAVIS: Uh, huh Do you think your mom would be proud of you if you got some
20   of these other kind of awards?
21 BROWN: Uh, huh
1 DAVIS: She bragged on you once about the school award you got. You know the
2   one I’m talking about?
3 BROWN: Uh, huh.
4 DAVIS: She was very pleased about that. Now. I don’t know if that was you that
5   earned that. That was Alice that earned that. Uh, well, I know that she
6   gets pleased with that. What did she say when you wore the crown? Did
7   she say, "Good for you?"
8 BROWN: She couldn’t.
9 DAVIS: She couldn’t? And how do you know she thinks it was a good deal?
10 BROWN: She had one, too.
11 DAVIS: Why couldn’t she say?
12 BROWN: I don’t know. She didn’t. Nobody ever did.
13 DAVIS: Uh, huh. So you’re not real sure about the honor then? You know this
14   Barbara Stuart stuff?
15 BROWN: (Inaudible)
16 DAVIS: You what? Are you high enough up your system or far enough down,
17   however you want to say it, to know about Barbara Stuart?
18 BROWN: A little bit. Not really.
19 DAVIS: Not really. What do you know about her?
20 BROWN: She’s part of the history, like, I don’t know, she was somebody great.
21 DAVIS: Yeah. She was one of the queens of England.
1 BROWN: Barbara, Queen of Scot.
2 DAVIS: Oh, Barbara, Queen of Scot. Very good. You have a Barbara Stuart inside?
3 BROWN: Uh, huh. She never comes out, though.
4 DAVIS: Now, Barbara, Queen of Scot, or Barbara Stuart, I hope you know that you
5   could just be proud of being related to The Queen of Scot. You don’t
6   necessarily have to be proud of the cult connections.
7 BROWN: She was cult, too.
8 DAVIS: Uh, huh. I don’t know if she was cult or not. She may have been or it may
9   have been a trick. I don’t know if you guys are aware that the cult does
10   sometimes, like Russia always did, they invent things. The whole country
11   of Russia, the USSR, would claim inventions that Americans had made.
12   Like Benjamin Franklin invented, or discovered how to use electricity.
13   Well, I don’t know who the Russian is that they say did it, but for a long
14   time the Russian history books said that one of their guys conquered
15   electricity. And Alexander Graham Bell, you know, how he’s the one who
16   invented the telephone in this country? They’ve got some Russian that
17   they claim invented the telephone.
18 BROWN: How do we know that they didn’t, that we’re not claiming that we did it?
19 DAVIS: Well, that’s an interesting question. I guess there was so much verification,
20   and if you look in the history of where the telephones appeared first. But,
21   that’s an intelligent question for checking it out. But, my point is, if a
1   whole country like Russia could lie and claim that they invented these
2   things and lots of other things also. They just totally changed history.
3   Then how do you know the cult didn’t invent, Barbara Stuart was cult? The
4   original one, the important one was Barbara, Queen of Scots
5 BROWN: You couldn’t.
6 DAVIS: Yes, you could. Now I don’t know if they did or didn’t, you see. But I do
7   know Barbara, Queen of Scot, Barbara Stuart was Barbara, Queen of Scot. And
8   that’s, you know, everybody validates that all over the world.
9 BROWN: Uh, huh.
10 DAVIS: So your Barbara Stuart inside wants something to be proud of she could be
11   proud of that.
12 BROWN: I have a question.
13 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
14 BROWN: How would Barbara Stuart inside be able to say that she was proud?
15 DAVIS: Well, when you’re talking about, people sometimes talk about where did
16   your family come from. Were you partly French or English or Irish? Then
17   she could say that, uh, you all were descendants of Barbara, Queen of Scot.
18 BROWN: (Inaudible)
19 DAVIS: Uh, huh. And it’s true you don’t work it into every conversation. Like,
20   "How are you today? What would you like for your breakfast? Did you
21   know I’m a descendant from Barbara, Queen of Scot?" The classy thing is to
1   be subtle about it, you know. It’s when people are talking about Scot’s
2   plaid or something, "Oh, what a pretty plaid in your skirt." "It’s got the
3   same colors as our family crest of Barbara, Queen of Scot, but our pattern’s a
4   little different." You kind of work it in subtle. If it matters to you.
5 BROWN: Yes, it does.
6 DAVIS: It does? Well, I think it’s pretty neat, too. I would mention that part if it
7   was for my benefit.
8 BROWN: Mommy had a plaid hanging in the hallway. Is it true that everybody had a
9   different plaid?
10 DAVIS: All different plaids, yeah. That’s true.
11 BROWN: How do they do that?
12 DAVIS: Well, they just did. They have bigger or smaller lines and patterns and stuff
13   like that. I don’t know.
14 BROWN: That’s weird.
15 DAVIS: Why?
16 BROWN: I don’t know. I just think plaid is weird.
17 DAVIS: Why?
18 BROWN: Just the way it is.
19 DAVIS: Huh. What’s weird about it?
20 BROWN: The way all the different colors go (inaudible).
21 DAVIS: Uh, huh We don’t have a whole lot longer for the session. Anybody else
1   want a turn with any feelings about anybody down deeper wondering how
2   it’s going to be?
3 BROWN: Yeah, but they don’t want to come up.
4 DAVIS: Is it okay if I talk to them?
5 BROWN: Yeah.
6 DAVIS: Yeah. Can they listen up? Can they come up far enough to hear?
7 BROWN: Yeah.
8 DAVIS: Yeah? Okay. You guys are on your way out. but it’s interesting in a way
9   you’ll have less contact with anybody who’s ever been cult probably than
10   you’ve ever had in your life.
11 BROWN: Even in here?
12 DAVIS: Even in here, yes. You have lots of folks who go on to the cult here.
13 BROWN: Even, even if you (inaudible)?
14 DAVIS: Uh, huh. That’s right. I know.
15 BROWN: Does that happen a lot?
16 DAVIS: In different hospitals, you mean?
17 BROWN: Uh, huh
18 DAVIS: Well, there are more here than other places.
19 BROWN: I mean people here recognize people here being a problem.
20 DAVIS: Oh, yeah. And I wondered if the guys down below just figured they were
21   going to hang out and maybe see if they found anybody when they’re 18 or
1   so or. I wonder what people’s hope is if they’re going to cast adrift without
2   anybody to be the master.
3 BROWN: They’re scared.
4 DAVIS: They’re scared? Is that what they’re telling you?
5 BROWN: It’s out of control.
6 DAVIS: Uh, huh. Well, I don’t know, maybe they can find a dope addict to control,
7   or dope dealer to control themselves. It won’t be cult, but at least it would
8   be somebody telling them what to do. That’s probably their best hope.
9   Maybe an alcoholic boyfriend or something like that.
10 BROWN: (Inaudible)
11 DAVIS: Uh, huh Do these guys grow up feeling like that? Some of them will just
12   take anybody to be a master?
13 BROWN: Not just anybody.
14 DAVIS: Well, that’s what I’m talking about, just anybody. Just the dope feigns or
15   somebody like that.
16 BROWN: Uh, huh.
17 DAVIS: Well, they’re going to have a long wait for a master out there. I wonder if
18   they’re going into hibernation like a bear going into a cave or if they’re
19   going to hang out and see what regular life is like.
20 BROWN: They’re going to see what regular life is like.
21 DAVIS: Yeah, well. I think that’ll be good for them.
1 BROWN: Will you ever talk to me again?
2 DAVIS: When you go away? I have no idea you’re going to be going.
3 BROWN: If I stay in Houston will you talk to me again?
4 DAVIS: I don’t know. I would have to visit with CPS and Dr. Peterson about that.
5   Your new therapist might not like that idea because it would be, you now,
6   me keeping in contact with you and me not getting in the way of starting a
7   new bonding with the new therapist.
8 BROWN: But still, when I get out of here, I can go in Peterson’s office and you’ll
9   still be there.
10 DAVIS: Who knows. We’ll all still be there. I won’t ever forget you, Alice. You
11   are indelible.
12 BROWN: I mean, like, when Doctor, how long do you think you’ll be in Dr.
13   Peterson’s office?
14 DAVIS: Why? Probably until I retire.
15 BROWN: That’s a long way away, huh?
16 DAVIS: Quite a ways, yeah. But we’re probably should terminate when we leave
17   here, simply because to think that kind of thing sort of leads to denying the
18   void that you’re going to be going away. And I don’t know where they
19   will place you. They may place you halfway across the state. It’s a very
20   big state, you know. This state is as big as many states and they may place
21   you very far away.
1 BROWN: Or outside the state.
2 DAVIS: Uh, huh. That’s possible, too. I think you’ve written about it right here
3   that, how all these people have been helping you for a very long time and
4   how you should just let go. But one thing I know is that incomplete
5   terminations prevent new beginnings.
6 BROWN: What do you mean?
7 DAVIS: They get in the way. Like when people have boyfriends, and they get new
8   boyfriends, and the old ones get in the way, you know. It’s better to say
9   good-bye and to lose people and leave them.
10 BROWN: What about Kristi? Will I get to say good-bye to her?
11 DAVIS: No, I don’t think so. Kristi Carl, you mean? We’ve lost a page here, I
12   think. Maybe that’s just how you started it. Okay. You’ve brought drugs
13   into the house?
14 BROWN: Sometimes. So does Carol,
15 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
16 BROWN: I don’t what was going on, you know.
17 DAVIS: What’s what?
18 BROWN: (Inaudible) what was going on.
19 DAVIS: Uh, huh. Why is it that you didn’t have to go for detoxing here at the
20   hospital? When was the last time you did drugs?
21 BROWN: On my first day.
1 DAVIS: The day you came in here? What did you take?
2 BROWN: Acid.
3 DAVIS: Did you take acid often?
4 BROWN: I don’t know.
5 DAVIS: Did you ever take any after you came into the hospital?
6 BROWN: Huh, uh. Never had a chance to.
7 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
8 BROWN: My dad tried to put it in my toothpaste.
9 DAVIS: How do you know that?
10 BROWN: Because he planned to do it and he told me about it. That is why I was so
11   upset they took my toothpaste away.
12 DAVIS: I don’t think they found any acid in the toothpaste, Alice. They found
13   only regular stuff in the toothpaste.
14 BROWN: He said he was going to put it in there.
15 DAVIS: Uh, huh.
16 BROWN: (Inaudible)
17 DAVIS: Somebody inside?
18 BROWN: Uh, huh.
19 DAVIS: By him. Did he give you drugs sometimes?
20 BROWN: Not while I was here.
21 DAVIS: Uh, huh. It’s interesting to think that your parts, I hope they’re still
1   listening real hard. Interesting to think you guys going off and you just
2   decide to just kind of hold on to the cult secrets and stuff so that you get
3   back involved with the cult someday. I have this picture of what it would
4   be like for you if for example, your mom keeps trucking along and
5   working on therapy, including her cult parts, and parts she says are cult
6   that are still coming out, And she’s always talking about writing a book.
7   Wouldn’t it be interesting if she wrote about all the secrets (inaudible)?
8 BROWN: She’s not going to (inaudible).
9 DAVIS: Who are you going to tell them to then?
10 BROWN: (Inaudible)
11 DAVIS: Huh?
12 BROWN: I’m hoping I can write a book.
13 DAVIS: Huh? You won’t be in touch with them anymore.
14 BROWN: After (inaudible).
15 DAVIS: No. I don’t know if she is going to wait on that.
16 BROWN: (Inaudible)
17 DAVIS: I think that she will be, yes. And I think she will (inaudible). She’s very
18   afraid of being killed. And for her to be around somebody who’s not safe
19   would be kind of suicidal. That is as straight of an answer as I can give
20   you. I will also tell you. . .
21   (END OF SIDE B)

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