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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #337, Side A & B - Date: 10/15/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

JP: Judith Peterson, Ph.D.

KT: Alice Thornton

CS: Carol Smith

UI: Unintelligible


1   (BEGINNING OF TAPE - SIDE A)
2   That'll work. Ah-ha! Thought I'd put the lid on it, and
3   let me see if it was working right. Okay. We're a go
4   here. What do you want to start with?
5 CS: I don't know. I gave her urn -- a -- a what -- a copy of
6   the letter that I wrote to Ivy, and a -- the copy of a
7   letter that I wrote to Chrissy. The first letter that I
8   wrote to Chrissy, I'm sure you read it.
9 JP: Uh-hum. I don't remember.
10 CS: Oh.
11 JP: Chrissy Dahl?
12 CS: Yeah.
13 JP: Yeah.
14 CS: And I wrote a letter to Ivy --
15 JP: Uh-huh.
16 CS: -- and was gonna mail it, but then I found out that
17   somebody was coming, so I decided to just save it.
18 KT: So you have a copy of this one, right?
     
    1
     
1 CS: Yeah. I have -- I have two copies of it. So. There's
2   one for me and one for my treatment team, if they should
3   need it. I try to stay organized.
4 KT: It looks like it. So do you know why I'm here today? Did
5   they tell you?
6 CS: To interview? I'm not exactly sure. What, to say, I
7   mean, I know that um, there's some discharge planning
8   happening.
9 KT: Uh-huh.
10 CS: And, I have to figure out where I'm gonna go from here.
11   And it's obviously not gonna be home, because my mother is
12   not safe for me to go home and live with right now.
13 KT: What about B.A.?
14 CS: Definitely not. (laughs)
15 KT: Can you tell me why?
16 CS: Um, because, I think it was in July, um, I had a family
17   session with him and I confronted him because I had
18   started to remember some abuse, sexual abuse. Um, and he
19   was offered the opportunity to go into treatment and work
20   this out, and he refused it. So, therefore, he is still
21   cult active. And I don't want to go and live with someone
22   that's still involved in that, because that's what I'm
23   trying to get out of right now.
     
    2
     
1 KT: Okay. When you say sexual abuse, can you tell me what you
2   mean by that?
3 CS: Um, in September of last year, around September and
4   October last year, my step-dad, he um, he raped me and I
5   got pregnant. And then he forced me to have an abortion
6   against my will. It happened a lot. It was just, I only
7   got pregnant once from it.
8 KT: How long has it been going on?
9 CS: For as far back as eleven.
10 KT: (UT) . That's a long time.
11 CS: Yeah.
12 KT: Yeah. Is there anybody that you can think of that you do -
13   want to live with until -- ? My understanding is that
14   your mother is not quite ready to (tape skips). Okay. Is
15   there anybody else that you want to live with, or feel
16   safe with, until then?
17 CS: Not that I know. Everyone that I know is unsafe for me to
18   be with right now.
19 KT: Okay.
20 CS: I would like to -- and this is gonna be really hard for me
21   to say -- I would like to be separated from my sister.
22 KT: Why?
     
    3
     
1 CS: For a little while -- to give me a chance to adapt and
2   adjust to being on the outside, and getting used to what's
3   out there. Because it's been a long time since I've been
4   on the outside. So I don't really know what it's like,
5   being out there and being safe. So I'll need some time,
6   kind of, by myself to adjust to that. And then, maybe
7   later have family meetings, and maybe um, to go somewhere
8   and try being a family again.
9 KT: When you're separated from her, does that just -- do you
10   mean, just living apart? Would you still want to have
11   contact with (tape skips)? -
12 CS: Not at that time where I'm trying to get used to the
13   outside, because it could throw me off balance. So that
14   (tape skips) was a decision that I made um, last night
15   when I was thinking really hard about what I wanted after
16   I got out of here. And I don't want to do anything that's
17   gonna mess anything up. So I think the best thing would
18   be for the three of us to be separated with no contact
19   until it's decided that it's okay for us to be together by
20   a professional.
21 KT: You know, until you feel stronger. (tape skips).
22 CS: Well, right now, we just recently got off of a ten-foot
23   restriction, which meant that we couldn't be within ten
     
    4
     
1   feet of each other. We couldn't speak to each other. Um,
2   but we were still on the same unit. And...
3 JP: Weren't you still in the same groups?
4 CS: Yeah, we were still in the same groups. We were allowed
5   to speak to each other in groups, but not outside of
6   groups. And...
7 KT: Why was that?
8 CS: Um, because there was some way as to, one or the other,
9   doing what we call triggering each other. I don't know if
10   you know about that. Um, it's -- there's a pretty big
11   variety of hand signals that cults use to shut other
12   members down if they're in therapy. And we both know
13   them, so um, I could have easily used one and shut her
14   down.
15 KT: Uh-huh.
16 CS: So the ten-foot restriction was, basically, to keep us
17   away from each other so we weren't touching each other and
18   sending verbal messages and, basically, communicating
19   outside of a structured group.
20 JP: Is there also another issue around touching?
21 CS: So that we wouldn't hurt each other.
22 JP: Because I think that's real important, Carol.
23 KT: How would you have hurt each other?
     
    5
     
1 CS: (tape skips) I have a lot of anger towards my sister
2   because she's hurt me in the past.
3 KT: How did she hurt you?
4 CS: Um, during, like, ceremonies and stuff, she would be
5   forced to hurt me. Um, such as electroshock or burns,
6   sometimes cuts. And there -- I, I still have a lot of
7   anger towards her for that.
8 KT: Did she ever have to do any of that to you -- I mean, did
9   you (tape skips)?
10 CS: It was -- it was...
11 KT: Both ways?
12 CS: Both ways
13 KT: Okay.
14 CS: And so, basically, that was another part of the ten-foot
15   restriction, because there's a lot of anger between the
16   both of us that we haven't work out all the way yet. So.
17 KT: Uh-huh.
18 CS: And we didn't want to hurt each other. But we -- we
19   managed, somehow, to get off of the ten-foot restriction,
20   and everything's been okay, as far as I can see. She
21   hasn't hurt me and I haven't hurt her. So. (tape skips)
22   mean like sexually?
23 KT: Uh-huh.
     
    6
     
1   CS:  Um, yeah, we were forced to do that sometimes.
2 KT: You were forced by who?
3 CS: Um, mom, and step-dad, whenever he was doing his porno
4   films. (tape skips) Um, yeah, I have thought about it.
5   And I had -- I had an idea, but, of what I would like to
6   see but I don't know if he'll offer it. Um, but when I was
7   in another hospital, they had a day treatment program, and
8   there was a big house, a big group house, and it was
9   called the Achievement Place. And the kids that were on
10   day treatment went and lived in that house at night, like
11   a residential type treatment center where there's, like, a
12   big house that they go to from the hospital, so they're
13   not still in the hospital afterwards, where there's rules
14   and they had a point system where you earn levels to get
15   certain privileges. And it was -- it was really a good
16   experience for me and I really like -- it was like --
17   almost like a real family and it was safe. And I really
18   liked it. But they've closed it down since then.
19 JP: What was it called?
20 CS: The Achievement Place.
21 KT: I think the Achievement Place has some other, it might not
22   be same one you're thinking of, but...
     
    7
     
1 CS: Completely of, but anybody can walk in, anybody can walk
2   out.
3 KT: Yeah. Some of them. Some of them are closed.
4 CS: That's not what I need. (laughs) I need something where
5   it's very restricted, um, where not just anybody can come
6   in, you know, and visit me. Because that's a problem that
7   I've come across here. My step-dad wants to visit me.
8   And if I went there, and he knew I was there, then, and
9   there weren't, like, any restrictions against people
10   coming in to visit, he could just walk in the door and I'd
11   be very vulnerable and exposed.
12 KT: Okay. What about restrictions for you leaving?
13 CS: I -- I don't -- I don't think it would be safe for me to be
14   able to leave.
15 KT: Okay.
16 CS: As far as phone calls go, no, because that's where I am
17   right now. I have no phone calls at all here, unless it's
18   to my treatment team. Um, no mail.
19 KT: So that's what you think would be best after you leave
20   here too?
21   (tape skips)
22 JP: No guts about it.
     
    8
     
1 CS: It keeps me from being able to make contact with um, other
2   cult members, if I decide that I want to go back. And it
3   keeps them from being able to make contact with me if they
4   need to, or if they try to. Because I can't accept mail,
5   urn, I can't accept phone calls, and nobody can come visit
6   me. So, basically, it keeps me from letting people know
7   where I am. And (tape skips) know that they don't know
8   where I'm at, and I don't have to worry about, while I am
9   able to contact them, but I'm not going to. Because if I'm
10   not able to, then I don't have to worry about it.
11 KT: Do you think you'd feel safe being placed somewhere in
12   Houston, or would you be -- feel safer outside of Houston?
13 CS: (tape skips) because I knew that one day, I'd come back.
14   You know?
15 KT: Um-hum.
16 JP: To revisit the sites of your abuse?
17 KT: Um, I, I wouldn't want to come back.
18 CS: Unless my mother wanted to relocate to another place to
19   live.
20 JP: I think she's thinking about that. She's, not thinking
21   that's real safe (tape skips).
     
    9
     
1 CS: Because when I first came in here, I didn't have any
2   contact with them. Except through, like, a family
3   session.
4 KT: Uh-huh.
5 CS: And I've worked my way up to having my own sister on the
6   same unit with me. As a matter of fact, she's in the room
7   right next door to me. So it's --. it's almost like living
8   at home, but for only my mom's not there. But it's not
9   quite like that. Because there's still a lot of -- we're
10   not allowed to go into each other's rooms. And um,
11   there's, like, boundaries.. We don't touch each other. Um,
12   we don't sit too close to each other whenever we talk. We
13   may sit like this and talk, but we don't get real close.
14   We really have to be careful about boundaries. (tape
15   skips) Cause I hope she won't. If she doesn't, then that's
16   something else for me to think about. If she doesn't
17   reach the point of where she's safe, then I'll just have
18   to, I guess, let go of her. Because um, I have to think
19   about my own safety. (tape skips) . I thought that the
20   cut-off point was seventeen. And that's what I was
21   worried about was my seventeenth birthday is only --
22 KT: A few days away;
     
    10
     
1 CS: -- a few days away. And I was told by another patient
2   that CPS doesn't care for patients that are seventeen or
3   over. And I was, like, well, great. Then I'm just dumped
4   after November third. You know?
5 KT: Well, even -- we care for people up until they're
6   eighteen. But, even after you're eighteen, I told your
7   sister, there's programs that they're just -- it's pretty
8   new, it's probably been around about a year -- and what
9   they do is preparation for adult living, is what it's
10   called. And it's a whole group of people in our building
11   that help you, provide you therapy, if you still need it,
12   provide you with whatever you need. Any kind of support.
13   I mean, like I told your sister, they'll help you balance
14   your checkbook, they'll show you how to apply for credit
15   cards, how to get into college, how to fill out college
16   applications. They help you with all that so that you're
17   not just thrown out when you turn eighteen. And we can't
18   make you do what we want you to do, but we can support you
19   and help you so that you're not just out there by yourself
20   with no ties. Does that sound like something -- be good
21   for you?
22 CS: Sounds pretty good to me. I was planning on um -- I had
23   asked um, the school principal here, today, about taking
     
    11
     
1   my GED after I turn seventeen. Well, she says I have to
2   finish this school year before I can take it.
3 KT: Uh-huh.
4 CS: Because it's a state law that you finish. . .
5 KT: Did -- did they (UI) it?
6 CS: My GED. Um, it's, basically, a high school diploma,
7   without having to finish high school. So that after
8   discharge I could maybe get a job, part-time, and start
9   saving money for college. Because I have no way to go to
10   college unless I have money.
11 JP: Can I ask a really dumb question?
12 CS: Yeah.
13 JP: How does um (tape skips)?
14 CS: I have to get to the point of where I wouldn't have to be
15   in such a restricted environment . .
16 KT: What I would encourage you to do, is to stay in school.
17   (tape skips)
18 JP: What do you think of that?
19 CS: I think it's pretty neat. Cause I thought I was gonna
20   have to pay for everything myself.
21 KT: No.
22 JP: What do you think of that?
     
    12
     
1 CS: It sounds a lot better than going home. Because if I went
2   home, I'd have to pay for everything myself.
3 JP: You'd also go on getting abused.
4 CS: Yeah.
5   (tape skips)
6 KT: Tricky to get. Because I know, I went through college and
7   I tried to get all those loans, and it was hard. But
8   these people, they sort of know how to do it.
9 JP: Carol's very organized, too.
10 KT: Yeah.
11 JP: She's a very good student.
12 KT: I'm usually doing all the forms. Really.
13 JP: She's very, she'd be very capable --
14 KT: Lots of forms.
15 JP: -- of helping herself. And helping whoever would help
16   her.
17 KT: And they show you how to do that and they -- they hook you
18   up with people, like adults, who are, you know, stable and
19   have good jobs and if you don't have kids and just want to
20   -- sort of like a big brother or big sister type of thing.
21   And they hook you up with people like that that you can
22   call when you need help, to help you through things and
23   talk to you about stuff.
     
    13
     
1 CS: They are kind of careful about who they hook you up with,
2   aren't they?
3 KT: Uh-huh.
4 CS: Okay.
5 KT: In your case, they'd be extra careful. I mean, they have
6   to go through a whole long process to get on it. And you
7   wouldn't have to have somebody, if you didn't want to. But
8   they can give you numbers for people who can support you
9   and help you. Does that sound like what you need...
10 CS: Yeah.
11 KT: ... and what you want?
12 CS: - If after a certain point, I got to the point of where I
13   didn't need to be so restricted, would there be a
14   possibility that I could - - is there a residential
15   treatment center um, where you can work your way off of
16   being so restricted?
17 KT: Uh-huh. Yeah, a lot of them are like that. We don't want
18   to keep you restricted. That doesn't -- that doesn't help
19   you.
20 CS: Because then I'd never get to see the real world.
21 KT: Right.
22 CS: I want to get to the point of where I'm out there, you
23   know.
     
    14
     
1 KT: Right. And that's what we want. But when you're ready.
2   And when, you know, we think you're ready. When -- So
3   that, you know, if you don't have good judgment about
4   when you're ready, then we can help you with that: But,
5   no, we don't want to keep you restricted for the rest of
6   your life. That wouldn't be very good. You wouldn't be
7   very happy.
8 CS: No. No, I wouldn't.
9 KT: But, what we want to try to do is keep you and your sister
10   and your mom safe, and maybe way down the line, you know,
11   we don't know when, but maybe try to get you back together
12   as a family.
13 CS: Yeah. That's my goal
14 KT: We don't want to keep you apart either. So that's what
15   we're trying to do. Does that sound like what you want me
16   to work on?
17 CS: Yeah.
18 KT: Okay. You have any questions or --?
19 CS: Not right now.
20 KT: Okay.
21 CS: If I think of any, I'll make sure I write them down, and
22   I'll call you.
     
    15
     
1 KT: Please do. Because I need to know everything that I can
2   about you so that I can pick the right place for you.
3   Because all I know is what you tell me and what your
4   letters say and what the other case workers tell me.
5   Because they -- they write down everything. Like, I'll go -
6   back and write all this up, all these little notes that
7   I'm making. So that I have all their notes. That's all I
8   know. So I need your help so can tell me what you need.
9   We don't want to have to move you after we get you
10   somewhere. I want you to find the perfect spot. (tape
11   skips) think about how things work, or what I'm gonna do?
12 CS: Do you know how long this process takes? - -
13 KT: It doesn't take days. It probably doesn't even take weeks.
14   It'll probably be at least a month. And Dr. Peterson said
15   that that's a pretty good time.
16 CS: Yeah.
17 KT: And so, if we get something lined up and then you're not
18   ready to be out of here, we can hold it for you until you
19   are ready, or something. You know, if you need to stay
20   here a little longer. Okay? And tell them exactly what
21   you need and what you want, and then they look at their
22   list of places and see where there's openings. So, it
23   takes awhile, because we want to make sure (tape skips)
     
    16
     
1   placement's a little different. Because if you're just
2   gonna be there a week or a month, then we can just find an
3   opening and put you there. It doesn't have to be exactly
4   perfect. But when you're gonna be there for awhile,
5   because we don't know how long it's gonna take your mom - -
6 CS: Yeah.
7 KT: -- we want it to be right.
8 JP: I would assume that, given Carol's age, that you're
9   (tape skips)
10 KT: Gonna hook you up with that program as soon as we took
11   custody which, for us to place you we would have to go to
12   court. And your mom's already said that would be good.
13   She wants you to be -safe.
14 CS: Yeah. I want to be safe too.
15 KT: And so, she would give us conservatorship, which means
16   that we get to make decisions. We're like your parents
17   sort of. We get to make all those parent decisions. And
18   that's when I would hook you up with that program, as soon
19   as we got started on it.
20 JP: Does she begin working (tape skips).
21 KT: They like to work with you before you get to be eighteen,
22   so that they can prepare you. It's preparation for adult
23   living. They don't just throw you out there, "Oh well,
     
    17
     
1   then we'll help you." They like to work with you before.
2   So that -- They might even start working with your sister
3   already.
4 CS: She's only thirteen.
5 KT: Maybe in a few years. Maybe like fifteen. But, I'm sure
6   they'd start working with you right away. -
7 CS: I know how to balance a checkbook and all that already,
8   any ways. I had to do it at home.
9 KT: Did you?
10 CS: Yeah. I balanced --
11 KT: Had a little responsibility?
12 CS: -- the checkbook. Yeah. I did a lot of grocery shopping
13   and stuff. But I wasn't really an adult, in lessons or at
14   work.
15 JP: You know what? You aren't.
16
17 KT: No.
18 CS: I know. I'm still just a kid, so.
19 KT: Yeah.
20 CS: I'm only in the tenth grade. I mean --
21 JP: So when you're eighteen, you'll still have another year of
22   school left. Okay, that's important for you to know too.
23   That you're -- you got (tape skips).
     
    18
     
1 CS: My -- My father, when I lived with him, he took me out of
2   school, wouldn't allow me to go.
3 JP: Oh. Okay.
4 CS: So I'm actually two years behind.
5 JP: Okay.
6 CS: I should be a senior this year.
7 JP: Okay. So she has -- that's another reason why I'd really
8   -- you know you have time to go to high school and let
9   yourself have some (tape skips)
10 CS: .. .question?
11 KT: Uh-huh.
12 CS: In this residential treatment place, would I still be
13   working with my same doctor and Dr. Peterson? Or will
14   they...
15 KT: Probably not.
16 CS: Oh.
17 KT: It would be a new therapist. Dr. Peterson (tape skips).
18 CS: . . .I'll be able to kind of check out these therapist
19   before I...
20 KT: Yeah. If you aren't comfortable with somebody, sure. I
21   mean, you know, therapy doesn't work if (tape skips).
22 JP: Your concern is?
     
    19
     
1 CS: I don't -- I don't want to get put with anybody that um,
2   doesn't know anything about multiple personalities, or
3   anything like that.
4 KT: Uh-huh.
5 CS: Because I -- then I'd have to be like -- then I'd have to
6   teach them.
7 KT: Right.
8 CS: And I -- that's not really my job. My job is to go there
9   and--
10 KT: And help you --
11 CS: -- not to be a teacher.
12 KT: Right.
13 JP: And Alice, that is real hard to. find.
14 KT: Um-hum.
15 JP: Um, that will be something to (tape skips) I have names of
16   folks uh, throughout the country and throughout the state
17   of Texas, that are (tape skips) I think Alice didn't say
18   it, that's just because of her age. She's not as aware of
19   that as you are about --
20 CS: Yeah, I'd -- I'd like to say, on her behalf, that that's
21   also really important for her.
22 KT: Sure it is. Gonna make sure I --
     
    20
     
1 JP: That's something I think that uh, didn't come up that mom
2   would have said to you, uh, Alice, in terms of the girls'
3   needs. (tape skips) .
4 KT: . . .Wants you to go back from this, you know and, wants you
5   to keep going forward in your treatment.
6 JP: Yeah. And they've come a long ways, and they have a lot
7   of trauma to work through and they can't get it either A-
8   a new therapist or B - someone that doesn't know how to
9   uh, process (tape skips) .
10 CS: (UI)?
11 JP: I don't know. That's also an example of old age.
12 CS: Um --
13 JP: See, you did it again. (laughs)
14 CS: I was also gonna say -- I was also gonna say that if it's
15   possible, I would like to work with a female.
16 KT: A female?
17 CS: Yeah.
18 KT: I'm sure that would be -- not a problem. I don't see that
19   as a problem.
20 JP: Most of the therapists in the field are female.
21 KT: Yeah, it'd-be probably harder to find a male.
     
    21
     
1 JP: Yeah. But you've made a lot of really good suggestions
2   about what your needs are, Carol. I'm really proud of
3   you.
4 CS: Thanks.
5 KT: And anything else you can think of, especially after, I
6   mean (tape skips) the paper work now, but after we really
7   get rolling, when I go back and talk to Ivy she's gonna
8   help me make a decision. We may have to go consult some
9   other people, you know, like the placement team, things
10   like that.
11   (tape skips)
12 CS: It's primarily with females here. She -- she works with
13   Sylvia.
14 JP: Sylvia. Uh-huh.
15 CS: Yeah. And um, I've seen her come a long way since she's
16   been here.
17 KT: Okay.
18 CS: So.
19   (tape skips)
20 CS: Yeah.
21 KT: Do you know it?
22 CS: I don't know it.
     
    22
     
1 JP: No, it's -- it'd be the nurses. I just want to make sure
2   it was okay with you.
3 CS: Yeah, and I have --
4 JP: So you weren't surprised that she --
5 CS: I have her number.
6 JP: Okay.
7 CS: So I can call her if I have any questions. Do you -- do
8   you want me to give you a copy of um, these letters to put
9   on the chart?
10 JP: Yeah. Are those -- are those copies there honey?
11 CS: Yeah. .
12 JP: Okay.
13 CS: Um, this is the copy of the one to Chrissy-that I wrote
14   before -- I think y'all already have a copy of that one.
15   I don't know if it's on the chart, though.
16 JP: Uh-huh.
17 CS: Um, and this one is the one that I wrote to Ivy.
18 JP: My goodness. This is a -- a dissertation.
19 CS: Yeah. And this one --
20 KT: She should be in college, huh?
21 JP: Yeah.
     
    23
     
1 KT: As organized as you are, you'd do really well in college.
2   Is there anything you want to add, or anything you want to
3   ask?
4 CS: (tape skips) there would be a school on the campus?
5 KT: Uh-huh.
6 CS: So I wouldn't, like, be going to a regular big, huge high
7   school --
8 KT: No.
9 CS: -- where there's five thousand students?
10 KT: No.
11 CS: Okay. Because I'm just not ready to go back to that. -Um,
12   I had a really bad experience with my-last high school.:
13   Um, I was in the marching band, and a lot of bad stuff
14   happened. I'm just not ready to go back to that.
15   (tape skips)
16 JP: Carol, let me ask, too, urn, to clarify to Alice, uh,
17   how do you do in school with your grades?
18 CS: Um, I -- I made pretty good grades. Um, this past six
19   weeks my grades weren't really that good because I have
20   had a lot of concentration problems. But I made two C's,
21   two B's and two A's. So.
22 JP: And what were your grades like in -- ninth grade?
23 CS: Um, I stayed on the honor roll pretty much the whole year.
     
    24
     
1   JP: What they need to know is that she's not two years behind
2    because she's retarded or learning disabled.
3   KT: Oh yeah.
4   JP: We have psych testing on both girls --
5 . KT: Uh-huh.
6   DP: -- so we have their IQ's and all that kind of stuff, and I -
7    don't have it -- it's somewhere in here. But um --
8   KT: (UI) .
9
10    (tape skips)
11   CS: . . .been told by urn, most of the therapists here that it
12    takes a lot of intelligence to disassociate any ways. So
13   JP: It does. -
14   CS: I mean --
15   KT: It takes a lot of brain power, that's for sure.
16   JP: Uh-huh. Yeah, I think you're right Alice.
17   KT: And to know all this, I mean you know about all of it.
18    Like you were saying about teaching the therapist.
19   JP: Um-hum. Yeah. A smart comment to make, isn't it? She's a
20    mature girl.
21   KT: I'm sure you could teach the-therapist. -That would be the
22    scary part.
     
    25
     
1 JP: You're right. She needs I -- my sense is she needs some,
2   a therapist that has been practicing for at least ten
3   years.
4 KT: Yeah, very experienced.
5 JP: Yeah. That really has had a lot of cases and isn't new.
6   She also can really um -- she's -- she's a terrific
7   manipulator. She is so fantastic. .
8 CS: Thank you.
9 JP: She is really, really terrific. And so she needs a more
10   experienced person to help her with, kinda stay on
11   target -- - .
12 KT: Do you like to manipulate?
13 CS: Um, it happens. . . .
14 JP: It happens? You plan it. Anyway, I think that she needs
15   someone that will be a challenge to her, you know, that
16   will really -- is as smart as she is.
17 CS: Yeah.
18 KT: Most of ours are. I don't think we have any, like, new
19   therapists. Most of them that have contracts with us are
20   very well established. In fact, I heard this morning that
21   they were agreeing (tape skips) specialty.
22 CS: I forgot one thing that I left out
23 KT: Uh-hum.
     
    26
     
1 CS: I have a lot of chemical dependency issues.
2 KT: Um-hum.
3 JP: That's right, you do.
4 CS: And the treatment center that I go to will probably need
5   to have on-grounds, like, AA meetings.
6 KT: Okay. What kind of chemical dependency?
7 CS: Um, I'm an alcoholic, and um, I have some dependency
8   issues with crack and um, marijuana, acid. Um, a lot of
9   injected drugs. Um, the injected -- the injected drugs
10   were mostly forced on me. And some pills that I didn't
11   even know the names of. But, a lot of drugs. I mean um,
12   so.
13 KT: How long have you--been here?
14 CS: It's been eight months. So.
15 JP: Don't you go to the (tape skips) .
16 CS: I don't --
17 JP: You used to right?
18 CS: I used -- No.
19 JP: Oh, I thought you did.
20 CS: I used to go to drug education --
21 JP: That's what I mean.
22 CS: -- but I didn't go to AA.
23 JP: Oh.
     
    27
     
1 CS: I still have individual drug education with David, my drug
2   therapist. But um, I'd -- I'd like to be able to attend,
3   like, AA meetings or something. Um, most residential
4   centers that I know of have those on grounds.
5 KT: That's something I need to ask for, just to make sure.
6   (tape skips) .
7 CS: . . .eating disorder. .
8 KT: Do you?
9 CS: I forgot to tell you, I'm also bulimic. So.
10 JP: That's another reason why she needs to be where she can be
11.   monitored real well about where she's living.
12   (tape skips)
13 CS: I've had a problem with that in the past couple of -weeks.
14   Because I went into a period of depression and I just
15   stopped eating.
16 KT: Uh-huh.
17 CS: And several of my peers confronted me on it, and I started
18   eating again, like yesterday. But (tape skips) whenever I
19   get into a depression I, I don't eat, or I eat too much
20   and then I throw up. So. It goes back and forth between
21   the two, depending on what's going on. It's something I
22   haven't really quite learned how to deal with yet. That
23   I'm hoping I can learn how to deal with it.
     
    28
     
1 KT: You need some therapy with that too?
2 CS: Yeah.
3 KT: So somebody knows about that.
4   (tape skips)
5 KT: . . . can think of? No? I'm sure you'll think of a million
6   things after I leave.
7 JP: You've been real thorough.
8 CS: I tried.
9 JP: Uh-huh.
10 KT: Have you been thinking about this for awhile?
11   Anticipating me coming?
12   (tape skips) - -
13 CS: . . .Well, I was about to just write everything I could
14   think of in a letter. Um that -- the letter that I gave
15   you doesn't really have that much in it. It's just
16   explaining the need that there is discharge planning going
17   on and there needs to be -- um, because I was under the
18   impression that the case was still closed, and I wasn't
19   told until today that it was reopened. And so that letter
20   was, basically, begging for the case to be reopened,
21   because it was imperative that we have a place to go when
22   we leave here.
23 KT: It was reopened yesterday and it's not gonna close.
     
    29
     
1 CS: Okay.
2 KT: Does that make you feel better?
3 CS: Yeah.
4 JP: There was a poor case worker here last week honey, and I
5   jumped all over him. Because I -- I needed the case
6   reopened for you and Alice. Um. poor case worker that
7   were here. He said, "Yes, yes, yes. We'll reopen it."
8 KT: Case workers get that a lot.
9 JP: Yeah. He happened to come in the door when I said, "Aha,
10   you're not leaving until we do this." He came in on
11   another case. And I caught him.
12 CS: That's good.
13 JP: Yeah. But I think you need lots of reassurance. I think
14   they both do, Alice, because they've had three case
15   workers (tape skips) . And -- and the therapists have said
16   it should not be closed, we have been honest with the
17   girls and mom, and said this is a mistake and, you know,
18   we need to get things sorted out.
19 KT: I can tell you why it was probably closed before.
20   (tape skips) have too many cases. They make us close
21   things when we don't really want to, which the case worker
22   you had before probably didn't want to. He probably didn't
23   feel like he should close it. But when you're protected,
     
    30
     
1   which you were protected in here, it has to be closed
2   until you're not gonna be protected any more.
3 CS: Yeah, well, we're looking at not being protected any more.
4 KT: Right. That's why they reopened it. But I think that's
5   why they closed it. Not so much to abandon you, it's
6   just, you know, you were safe for the moment. And we just
7   have to trust that people call us, like, you know, Dr.
8   Peterson or whoever calls us, to let us know when you're
9   not gonna be safe any more.
10 JP: You know, what I had said to the other case worker was --
11   um, and I don't know who to write to, I guess I'll start
12   with the Governor, uh, I think we need another status
13   and -- which will red flag cases that are --
14 KT: Yeah.
15 JP: -- possible status changing ones, where they are in a
16   hospital or whatever, but it's only a temporary, like, you
17   don't even live in a hospital for the -- until they're
18   eighteen.
19 KT: Uh-huh.
20 JP: And that there's something in between that tells everyone
21   that the -- that it's on hold.
22 KT: Right. I, think --
     
    31
     
1 JP: And not be considered an open case, but not a closed case.
2   Because a closed case means that there's no action. And
3   we call up and try to get any information, or if all we're
4   told is that the case is closed --
5 KT: Uh-huh.
6 JP: -- and no one can work on -- it's not a me issue.
7 KT: Yeah.
8 JP: You know, with us about the case, and so that's been real
9   frustrating to us who work in hospitals.
10 KT: Yeah, it's been frus -- (tape skips) . I can't close a case
11   with a good conscious and not think about it, you know.
12 JP: Oh, yeah.
13 KT: If I think that ---may even if there's -- like, I've had
14   parents that have begged me to keep cases open --
15 JP: Yeah.
16 KT: -- when, you know, they were protective, and, you know,
17   whoever hurt the kid is not gonna be able to hurt the kid
18   anymore, but they wanted therapy or whatever --
19 JP: Yeah.
20 KT: -- and I couldn't do anything. All I could do was give
21   them--I mean, I can give them all the phone numbers in
22   the world, but if they can't afford it then --
23 JP: Right.
     
    32
     
1 KT: But, it's really hard for us to -- we have to make those
2   decisions and sometimes we're forced to things that we
3   don't want to do.
4 CS: Yeah. (tape skips) to do my laundry with. So.
5 JP: That's -- that's another issue and I don't know where mom
6   is, I'll have to check with her, but there's a real um --
7   there's a real financial problem in here with the hospital
8    
9   (tape skips)
10 KT: Looks like we're gonna be taking custody just so that --
11 CS: Yeah.
12 KT: -- we can place you.- And when we do -- .
13 JP: Your mother can help out.
14 KT: -- there's clothing vouchers and there's all sorts of -- of
15   aid.
16 CS: I can hang on for another month or so with what I've got.
17   It's just um --
18 KT: It's getting scarce.
19 CS: Yeah. It's getting really scarce.
20 JP: That's a real reality for them.
21 KT: That's something we want to help you with.
22 JP: Yeah.
     
    33
     
1 CS: And -- my feet grow real fast. I'm in a number ten right
2   now.
3 KT: And still growing?
4 CS: Yeah.
5 KT: I stopped at five.
6 JP: Yeah, Alice has grown a whole lot. And there hasn't óó
7   we've had to really um, be imaginative to figure out what
8   (tape skips) .
9 CS: Are y'all gonna be helping Mom with the divorce like
10   getting her legal aide?
11 KT: We can óó we can't, like, pay for anything but there are,
12   you know, there are services that are free. Legal
13   foundations that --
14 JP: Barbara Frances over in -ó you know who Barbara Frances is?
15 CS: Yeah, she does --
16 JP: She's helped your Mom with legal aid stuff too. Uh, (UI)
17   Silvan is her case manager here at the hospital and that
18   person (tape skips) .
19 KT: . . . resources out there that are free, that we can help
20   your mom, you know.
21 JP: That aren't with CPS. That Mom can get.
22 CS: Um, okay, I was just kind of worried about that because, I
23   mean, with the shortage of money and everything. And in
     
    34
     
1   our last family session she said, "I don't have any money
2   and I can't get a lawyer." So.
3 KT: Yeah, there are people out there that -- that help.
4   There's a lot of -- I have a big, thick book, that's why I
5   don't know all these people off the top of my head.
6   There's this huge book of people-that we can refer to, and
7   people that we have contracts with that, you know, so you
8   don't have to pay, and then there's free people. Things
9   that are free that a lot of people don't know about. You'd
10   be amazed. There's a lot of it out there that, if you
11   don't have somebody to connect you and tell you about it,
12   you don't know.
13 CS: Yeah.
14 JP: You just never find out. I mean, I never would have
15   guessed before I came to work for CPS that there was
16   lawyers that were free.
17 CS: Sounds pretty good to me.
18 KT: For people who need it.
19 CS: Yeah.
20 KT: Not just for anybody. But I didn't know that. There's a
21   lot that we can help her with too.
22 CS: Yeah. That's another thing I was kind of worrying about
23   was I didn't see how she was gonna get a divorce without a
     
    35
     
1   lawyer. And I wouldn't feel safe being completely on the
2   outside, um, kind of exposed, without my step-dad
3   completely out of the picture.
4 KT: Uh-huh.
5 CS: And as far as I'm concerned, um, I don't know if I'm old
6   enough, but I was even considering getting a lawyer and
7   maybe trying to sue him for everything that he's done to
8   me that I can remember. Because I can remember a lot.
9   And it's just -- it's outrageous that -- because my father
10   got away with it already. There's nothing I can do. I
11   can't go back and try to sue my dad for stuff that he did.
12 JP: Did you know what you can do, then?
13 CS: What?
14 JP: You can file criminal charges.
15 KT: Uh-huh.
16 JP: You don't have to sue anybody. It's against the law to
17   rape a girl.
18   (tape skips)
19 KT: Um, police-wise, not CPS but police-wise, you're an adult
20   when you're seventeen.
21 CS: Yeah.
22 KT: So.
23 CS: That's kind of, like, emancipation.
     
    36
     
1 KT: Uh-huh. And that they --
2 JP: (UI) yeah. Or, and also mom, I think could do that on
3   your behalf, also. Is press criminal charges
4 CS: And, I mean, I don't want him to --
5. JP: Because if somebody has raped you, logically, then that's
6   somebody that we need off the streets, if that's the case.
7   You need to understand, there's two different things.
8   One s a civil suit which is suing someone (tape skips) .
9 KT: You probably can't do it with your father. I'm not sure
10   about that. But with your stepfather, like, you know,
11   after you get out of here, you can come to my office
12   and this is what I do daily; I mean with -- With people
13   that I go visit at their homes -- is the kids come back
14   and we video tape. And the child, you know, whoever it
15   is, will sit there and tell me everything that they can
16   remember, and every detail. And then the police take that
17   and they file charges.
18 JP: Oh, wow.
19 KT: We have police that work --
20 CS: That where could be all kinds of charges filed against
21   him.
22 KT: Uh-Huh.
23 CS: Because --
     
    37
     
1 KT: You would have to make a tape and you would have to, you
2   know, make a statement and tell me óó you know, we'd go
3   off in this little room and there's a tape recorder in
4   there and a video camera, and we'd make a video tape.
5 CS: Yeah, because I know child pornography is against the law.
6 KT: Yes.
7 CS: And I know rape and abortion --
8 KT: In fact, he would probably be out that afternoon, because
9   we have oneó-one Houston police officer for every unit.
10   Like, for my unit we have Mr. uh, Officer Martin. So
11   there's one HPD officer that's housed in our building, for
12   each unit. And then there's Sheriff's Department. I don't
13   know what jurisdiction it would be in, where he lives.
14   But, I mean, there's Sheriff's Department and there's óó
15 JP: How would it feel to be able (UI)?
16 CS: It would feel really good to have him off the streets.
17   Because I óó
18 JP: Did you know you could do that?
19 CS: I didn't -- I had no idea that I could have him put in
20   jail or anything.
21 JP: I'm sorry that you didn't know that before, because I
22   thought you did.
23 CS: I ó- I thought it was too late.
     
    38
     
1 JP: No.
2 CS: Because it had been this time last year.
3 JP: No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. And the same with Alice.
4   And if she doesn't know, she needs to know that.
5 CS: And I will tell her.
6 KT: I don't know what the statutes are, like, after you turn
7   eighteen, you know, what the limitations are. But until
8   you're eighteen, it could have happened when you were a
9   baby and they would still do it.
10 JP: That's right.
11 KT: There's no time limit. I don't know about after you're an
12   adult.
13 CS: So I could probably --
14 KT: I'm not sure how that works.
15 JP: You can begin doing that --
16 CS: Have a lot of people put in. No way. (laughs)
17 JP: But it sounds like the most important to you --
18 CS: Is getting my step-dad. Because --
19 KT: That's what we do. With um, the other people - - you're
20   talking about the cult members?
21 CS: Um, no. Like my dad and my brother, and --
22 KT: Okay. See we deal with the family.
23 CS: Yeah.
     
    39
     
1 KT: So anything that's family related that you made a
2   statement about, yes, Officer Martin could follow up on
3   that.
4 CS: Cause I'll -- I'll also tell you that my brother got me
5   pregnant twice, and one of them was actually born. So.
6 JP: And she's had an OB/GYN exam Alice, and it was very
7   demonstrative of abuse.
8 KT: Okay. You said that child was born?
9 CS: Yeah.
10 KT: Is it --
11 CS: And I don't -- I don't even know--if it's alive.
12 KT: You don't know if it's still living?
13 CS: Um, I only saw it for, like, two or three days. And then
14   it was taken away.
15 KT: Was it a boy or girl?
16 CS: It was a girl.
17 JP: Where and when was that, honey?
18 CS: Um, the -- the first one that was actually born was in
19   Baton Rouge. I was thirteen, um, and it was in April.
20 KT: Uh-huh.
21 CS: And the second one was in Savannah, Georgia, and it was my
22   step-dad's child and it was -stillborn, so they just I
     
    40
     
1   guess, put it in the dumpster. I don't know. I don't know
2   what they did with it.
3 KT: It was B.A.'s child?
4 CS: Yeah. And (tape skips) I'd say about two years ago.
5   (tape skips) knows about it now. She didn't at the time
6   it was happening, I don't think.
7 KT: Okay.
8 CS: Um, one of the abortions she actually took me to, because
9   my step-dad threatened her life if she didn't.
10 JP: Which one was that?
11 CS: Um, it was another one when we lived um, in Georgia. She
12   took me to Savannah
13 JP: Uh-huh. . .
14 CS: To have it. But, and um, it wasn't a doctor and it wasn't
15   in a doctor's office. It was like in a back closet, you
16   know. So I had -- basically, it was really life
17   threatening. Which is scary --
18 JP: How many abortions have you had?
19 CS: I'd have to think. Um, I've had two kids and at least four
20   abortions.
21   (tape skips)
22 CS: It was the stillborn.
23 JP: Oh, the stillborn.
     
    41
     
1 CS: Yeah. But I still considered it, I mean --
2 JP: Sure.
3 KT: So you gave birth twice?
4 CS: Yeah.
5 KT: And one is óó you don't know where she is or if she's
6   alive?
7 CS: No -- um, April, when I was thirteen.
8 KT: April, when you were thirteen. How old was Edward then?
9 CS: How many years back was that? I'm real bad at math.
10 JP: Well, you're thirteen -- you were thirteen and he is going
11   to be twenty? Or he is twenty already?
12 CS: I think he is twenty.
13 JP: And -you're still sixteen. Do that mean he was --
14 CS: We're exactly --
15 JP: -ó um, sixteen?
16 CS: Yeah.
17 KT: He was about sixteen.
18 CS: We were three years and nine months apart, exactly.
19   (tape skips)
20 CS: My last report was that he's a professional skateboarder
21   for Zorlak, a skateboard company. And he's living in
22   California. Because um, one of the patients on the unit
23   is a real big skater and he has skateboard magazines. And
     
    42
     
1   I was looking through and I saw my brother on a page.
2   He's pro sponsored now, which was one of his big dreams
3   whenever I was living with my dad. So, obviously he made
4   it.
5 KT: Was that cult oriented? Was he in the cult?
6 CS: Yeah, he was. Yeah. And my dad -- my dad was a high
7   priest. My father was a high priest.
8 KT: B.A.?
9 CS: No, my father.
10 KT: Your father?
11 CS: B.A. is my stepfather.
12 KT: And your father
13 CS: Is Edward Smith the third
14 KT: Okay.
15   (tape skips)
16 CS: And I believe that was against the law too.
17 KT: Yeah. For about two years (tape skips) .
18 CS: . . .was sixth and seventh grade.
19 KT: Unfortunately, we can't do anything about keeping her out
20   of school. We don't have any jurisdiction there at all.
21 JP: But it sure sounds like you (tape skips) .
22 CS: I have a real hard time being in front of a camera because
23   of the child pornography. Um, so --
     
    43
     
1 KT: Well, the camera -- it's -- it's behind a window, so it's
2   not in the room.
3 CS: Oh. Okay. Yeah, that's like what they do our family
4   therapy.
5 KT: Yeah.
6 CS: They put a camera behind the window.
7 KT: Yeah. It's behind a window. You can't see it. And I have
8   a hard time being in front of cameras too, and it doesn't
9   seem to bother me yet. So. But it's really hard to give.
10   all those details. I mean, I would need dates and exactly
11   how it happened and with who.
12 CS: Dates?
13 KT: Dates, as approximate --
14 CS: I don't know if I can remember exact dates.
15 KT: I mean, approximately. Like, "I was five", or you know "it
16   happened around Christmas time". As close as you can get.
17   As much detail as you can remember.
18 CS: Well, I could -- I could have my stepbrother put back in
19   prison because of something he did last Christmas Eve.
20   Um, he kidnapped me and took me to a crack house. And --
21 KT: I don't think they (UI) about that. Did you tell one of
22   the other workers?
     
    44
     
1 CS: Yeah. And um, I mean -- there's just a lot of stuff I
2   could do.
3 KT: It will be hard but I think it would make you --
4   (END OF TAPE, SIDE A)
5   (BEGINNING-OF TAPE - SIDE B) - -. .
6 CS: . . .plus I have a lot of friends, ex-friends that want to
7   go there too. So. But I think what would be really neat
8   is if I could go there and just laugh in their face, or
9   something. Say, "Ha, ha". I don't know. That's kind of
10   childish, but that's just what I'd really like to do is to
11   be able to go walk right in the middle of them and look
12   them in the eye and say, "I'm out, and you can't do
13   anything to me anymore". But, maybe that will happen one
14   day, I don't know. What do you think?
15 JP: I think you're gonna make it.
16 CS: I think so too.
17 KT: Looks like it to me and I just met you and, I don't know,
18   I'm fired up. I'm ready for you to get out there and get
19   in these programs and get your future started.
20 CS: Yeah.
21 KT: Because I think you'd do great in school, in college.
22 CS: Once I got my motivation back up. Because it kind of fell
23   this last six weeks. I wasn't really turning in anything.
     
    45
     
1 JP: How do you feel now?
2 CS: I feel a lot better. I feel like I could do all the last
3   six weeks' work and turn it in and make my grades better,
4   but. (laughs) Can't do that, but.
5 JP: But you can take this next month and really be doing good
6   in school because you've got some things to really build
7   on now.
8 CS: Yeah. Yeah. And then I've got--
9 KT: And not have to worry so much. You know what's gonna
10   happen, where we're headed anyway, at least a little bit
11   better than you did. - - -
12 CS: Yeah.
13 JP: And I, personally, think you ought to forget this GED
14   junk, because you're gonna to want to go to a good
15   college.
16 CS: Yeah, I do. I really do. I want to be a marine
17   biologist, and I've heard that's really a hard field to get
18   into.
19 KT: Yeah, I have a friend doing that. She's going to school.
20 CS: I'm thinking of Hawaii, maybe.
21 KT: They have a good program. Go to Bermuda, Bahamas. I'm
22   sure they've all got good programs in marine biology.
     
    46
     
1 CS: I just have to get over my fear of the water. Which I --
2   one of the -- the therapeutic recreational therapists has
3   helped me with my fear of the water. They have a four
4   foot swimming pool out there. And I just learned how to
5   swim this summer. And um, it started out with me just
6   putting my feet in and then going up to here, and then a
7   little bit above my knees and then, you know, waist. And
8   then it took me forever to get my face in the water. It
9   was like, "I'm not putting my face in the water". But I
10   finally did and then I learned how to swim. And so I'm
11   hoping to go a little bit farther into that . Because
12   water has been a big part of some of. the stuff that's
13   happened to me I'm terrified of boats. So I've got to
14   get over that before I can be a marine biologist.
15 JP: I think you'll do it.
16 KT: Uh-huh.
17 CS: Yeah.
18 KT: Obviously when you see all those neat things under the
19   water.
20 CS: Yeah. I love weird looking fish.
21 KT: You sound like my best friend. That's funny. She loves
22   to go out and take pictures of the water.
23 JP: Of weird looking fish?
     
    47
     
1 KT: Yeah. Bright óó I mean, I've seen some of the most
2   fantastic, odd looking fish that I never, I never knew
3   existed.
4 CS: I have this ó-
5 KT: It's just a whole different world.
6 JP: Uh-huh.
7 CS: I have this -- I have this picture in my head of my house,
8   whenever I get one, it's gonna have a big, huge aquarium
9   right in the middle of it that goes all the way up to the
10   ceiling. And it's gonna have all kinds of sea animals in
11   it. Like seahorses and maybe a shark. I don't know.
12 KT: A baby shark.
13 CS: Yeah. A baby shark.
14 KT: No big shark.
15 CS: All kinds of a weird looking fish, you know. No piranhas
16   or anything. I read in a magazine that a piranha can
17   devour a cow in three and a half minutes.
18 JP: It's a good thing you're not a cow. I'm really glad that
19   you're not a cow.
20 CS: Yeah. And a person's a lot smaller than a cow.
21 KT: That's right.
22 CS: So it's like, I wonder how fast they could devour a human.
23 KT: Don't ask. Just don't get near them.
     
    48
     
1 JP: Either that or gain enough weight to be bigger than a cow.
2 KT: Just don't go near them.
3 CS: I don't want to do that.
4 JP: Is there anything else?
5 CS: No, not that I can think of. I'm feeling a lot better
6   now.
7 KT: Well, good.
8 CS: I was kind of -- I was really nervous before I came in
9   here. It was like -- no, she's a woman. I didn't know
10   what she wanted to talk about. I was like, I'll just
11   bring my big binder in there, you know. But, I think I
12   feel like I did okay. So.
13 JP: Did it help you (UI)?
14 KT: Yeah, you gave me a lot of good information that I can
15   work with.
16 JP: And a lot of information that will help your sister.
17 CS: Yeah. Maybe some stuff that she left out that --
18 KT: Yeah. I think you -- y'all -- all three of you gave me
19   different pieces to the puzzle. That helps. A group
20   effort to figure it all out.
21   (tape skips)
22 JP: I think you're relieved.
23 CS: I am. Really relieved.
     
    49
     
1 KT: I need to get
2   (END OF SESSION)
     
    50
     

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