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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions

Tape #124, Side A & B - Date: 9/21/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

JP: Judith Peterson, Ph.D.

RS: Richard Seward, M.D.

SD: Sylvia Davis

BW: Barbara White

UF: Unknown Female

UI: Unintelligible

    SIDE A:
1   (Noises, door closing)
2 SD: Think she forgot something, I didn't quite hear that.
3   (Pause - door closing)
4 JP: What's going on?
5 BW: Well, uhm, I was surprised when I read on the consult
6   sheet this morning why I was going to the doctor because I
7   was, was not, I was not under the impression that that's
8   why I was going to the gynecologist. At all.
9 JP: What'd it say?
10 BW: It said something, it said something, please exam for self-
11   [mutilation].
12   (Pause)
13 BW: And I don't understand where that came from. I, I know
14   that when Dick was here, you said you wanted me to be
15   checked because you questioned that. But it was never, I
1   was taken off SP, you never brought it up again. Never
2   was approached and, no one ever approached me about that
3   possibility. And I felt very humiliated.
4 JP: Is that what you're upset about?
5 BW: That's one of the things I'm upset about. And I question
6   your integrity. I feel that that was very manipulative
7   just to, to do that in front of my husband.
8 JP: To do what in front of your husband?
9 BW: To say that I was internally self mutilating. Obviously,
10   since I wasn't externally self mutilating, I had to be
11   internally self mutilating.
12 JP: Uh-hmm.
13 BW: I thought that was very manipulative to do in front of...
14 JP: How was that manipulative?
15 BW: Well you know, you, you, there was no reason for you to
16   question that.
17 JP: There wasn't?
18 BW: No, there wasn't.
19 JP: Oh...
20 BW: There was no indication...
21 JP: it.. Who am I talking to?
22 BW: You're talking to Barbara, and others.
23 JP: And who's the other?
1   (Pause)
2 BW: Rosemary.
3 JP: Mm hmm.
4 BW: The teacher.
5 JP: Mm hmm.
6 BW: You're talking to the leaders.
7 JP: The leaders of the cult pack?
8 BW: Yes.
9 JP: Cause you're doing a real good job. And you wanted to be
10   in therapy. And I really welcome you into therapy, and
11   I'm really glad that you're here. And I hear that you all
12   have been to group, and I hear that you've all been to
13   individual therapy, and I hear that you've been out with
14   your peers on the unit, and generally been available. And
15   I think that that's very, very good. And you're doing a
16   remarkable job of splitting and distorting and
17   manipulating and doing all that you possibly can do to
18   make things very difficult, and so, in terms of your power
19   and ability to do all those things, I, I just want to
20   commend you all. Because you want to know whether or not
21   you could be here and be in therapy. And you most
22   certainly can be. You'll be called on all those behaviors
23   because cult behavior is something that you and your
1   family are working, I assume, to help be able to remove
2   from your family. So you will be called on that behavior.
3   And that's not the same as, as leading therapy or being
4   rejected or anything else. But cult folk always [interpret]
5   it that way. But that's what's happening. And they
6   distort, and they're verbally abusive, and they, you know,
7   they're generally not very nice people a lot. But you're
8   sure welcome. We're glad to have you.
9   (pause)
10 RS: I'm glad to see you again.
11 BW: I feel as though I'm being set up.
12 JP: In what way? We wanted you all to know, and all of us,
13   and Trish couldn't be here at the same time so that, we
14   couldn't all meet together, and we're sorry our schedules
15   didn't completely jive. But Trish knows that we're
16   meeting. In terms of everybody knowing, on the treatment
17   team about what's going on and how glad we are that you're
18   here.
19 BW: I can see you're delighted.
20 JP: Hmm?
21 BW: I can see you're delighted.
22 JP: Mm hmm.
23 BW: And I feel so welcome.
1 JP: Mm hmm. And you're very, very good at being sarcastic.
2 BW: So are you.
3 JP: I'm not being sarcastic. I am very glad that you all are
4   here. Because you are welcome to come during the sessions
5   with Dick and you did come out. And we knew things would
6   be dificult after he left if you all chose to remain and,
7   and really join therapy. So you're doing exactly what we
8   thought would happen, and we're really glad you're here.
9 SD: I have to say ditto to that also. I really mean that.
10 RS: I think it takes a lot of courage to be here.
11 SD: Mm hmm. I told the Barbara's when we were talking about how
12   difficult it would be to have you come out, ah, my
13   favorite nurse has an expression, you know, anybody whose
14   not a bitch by the time they're forty hasn't been paying
15   attention. I love that saying, and it's true. Because I
16   value this strength that you're gonna bring to this
17   system.
18 BW: Well we do have some things that we need to talk to you
19   about also.
20 SD: Yes, I know. I have a few things that I want to mention
21   to you also, but I really am glad to have you here.
22   (Pause)
1 BW: Well how am I going to reconcile with my alters if this is
2   a safe place to work. When I feel that I've been used.
3   That I've been manipulated. Humiliated.
4 RS: How much of what we talked about Saturday got shared?
5 BW: I, I don't, I'm not having a problem with you. I told you
6   that on Saturday.
7 RS: No, that's not what you told me on Saturday.
8 JP: Do you know what? This reminds me Doctor Seward, of the
9   old days, long ago, because when the cult parts are
10   really, really out, and like the past, that for whatever
11   reason, they really, really don't get along with women.
12   and they tend to get along better with men.
13 RS: Well my point was, is that I was told that ah, that things
14   along the line that ahm, ah the things that I was saying
15   would be betrayed later. Ah, that it wasn't good enough
16   that their expectation, that they would be hurt if they
17   were out saying the things that they were saying to me, ah
18   wasn't being met. Ah, that there was just no trust, that
19   for many of the things that I was saying wasn't going to
20   lead to hurt (UI)
21 JP: The other thing that I think might be different, Doctor
22   Seward, is that, I think that when this group was out
23   before, and I think that they were out before that they
1   were really able to manipulate the male that was on the
2   treatment team and cause a lot of splitting. And so this
3   may be real different for them. And, and I hope we'll
4   feel a lot safer, in terms of everybody being able to be
5   out and ah, do whatever they need to do. And I, I think
6   that that might be real different.
7   (Pause)
8 RS: The, the very fact that I was given a letter...
9 JP: ...Mm Hmm...
10 RS: ...I was told that ah there was no belief that it would
11   actually get to you.
12 JP: Mm hmm.
13 BW: That what, the letter would actually get to you?
14 RS: To her.
15   (Pause)
16 BW: What was it (UI)?
17 RS: Of what we talked about, that...that it was your
18   expectation that we use the letter.
19   (Pause)
20 BW: But I understand what you're saying about the differences
21   between men and women, the (UI) parts.
22 JP: Mm hum.
1 RS: My main point was, already some of the assumptions that
2   they go on, ah have been shown to not work. And the
3   suggestion would be that maybe other assumptions,
4   particularly, as being applied to women on the treatment
5   team may also be a question.
6 JP: Uh huh.
7 BW: I have no options. I have to work with you because if I
8   don't work with you, Doctor Sachs won't let us join George.
9 JP: That's not true. I don't know where you heard that.
10 BW: I heard it from you.
11 JP: No. I'm sorry I never said that.
12 BW: Yes you did.
13 JP: Huh uh. No...not at all.
14 BW: ...And I...
15 JP: ...wait, wait, wait...
16 BW: ...Doctor Seward, I would be...
17 JP: ...just, just a minute...
18 BW: ...and I would be committed. Not to state, not to a state
19   facility where I could easliy get out of. But to here.
20 JP: 0h, what we did tell you, ah, I'll go back to the other in
21   just a second.
22 RS: ...That's a little distorted, but...
1 JP: Mm hmm, what we did tell you was that if everybody
2   inside that really wants treatment was sorta squashed down
3   real deep, and the parts were really up high, that are
4   real cult and really want to leave and would really
5   endanger all of you. But you all wanted to know that we
6   would keep you here. And we assured you that we would and
7   that we would, and that if we had to do a commitment we
8   wouldn't do it to any place away from here, that we would
9   stick right with you through that process. Right here.
10   And I want evervone down deep, that's underneath what's
11   happening right now, all the way down to really hear that,
12   that that is exactly what we'll do. Is we'll keep you
13   right here. Dick will continue to come, we will still go
14   on working on everything because we're committed to
15   working with you. We're not going to send you anywhere.
16   No matter how difficult things get. And going back to the
17   other point, it would certainly be coercive for me to say,
18   well you have to work with me at this (UI) . You can choose
19   another Ph.D. if you want to. You can do that. You've
20   always had that capability of doing that. Whether Doctor
21   Sachs in Chicago works with Dick and George has nothing to do
22   with who treats you in Houston. And she can commmunicate
1   with whom ever treats you here. That has, that's
2   irrelevant. That's never been a problem.
3 BW: Well then maybe we need to take a look at, um, at
4   different therapists, group.
5 JP: You can do whatever you like to about that. That's up to
6   you.
7 BW: I do want to ensure that, that Dick and George still get
8   treatment with Bobbie.
9 JP: That's not related. But I think that somebody told you
10   that.
11 BW: Yeah, I think somebody did too.
12   Uh huh, it was Doctor Raymond. So I'll just be real clear
13   about it. Because he wrote it in the chart and it was a
14   lie. And in fact, right after Doctor Raymond left, in
15   terms of treating you, I processed that with lots of you,
16   that indeed that was not the case. That number one, I
17   wasn't leaving you, and number two, that wasn't at all
18   true what he had said about that. Because he directly
19   said that to all of you. And really upset you and that's
20   not the case at all.
21 RS: Yeah, it's really a puzzle to me.
22 JP: What's the puzzle?
1 RS: That um, this part or this group of parts is so irate as
2   we don't get to see you very often.
3 JP: Uh-hmm. But they want to get rid of me.
4 RS: Yeah, that don't make sense.
5 JP: I don't know what that's about.
6 BW: Well I didn't, I didn't realize that we earned your, um,
7   time.
8 JP: How do you earn time?
9 BW: That's how, basically how we were questioning how do you
10   earn your time? Um, SYLVIA said that um, you had spent
11   eight hours with us last week when DICK was here. So I was
12   wondering how much time I needed to earn for DICK's next
13   visit.
14 JP: Wh...that's real good cult thinking. And I commend you
15   all for somehow being able to distort what normally
16   occurs, and what I had said to you all before Dick ever
17   came was that I'd be spending some real concentrated time
18   and that meant...meant to that I didn't see some other
19   patients. Or spent less time. So I do catch up with them
20   with the anticipation to, that I will be spending time
21   with you and I'll also be spending time again in a
22   concentrated fashion with you and DICK. But that's more my
23   role now, cause you have Sylvia and Trish that you're
1   seeing and uh, in terms of how everything's worked out.
2   Which is all things that you requested.
3 SD: Let's not forget the distortion. I forget where that came
4   up. That somehow you were gonna be gone all of October...
5 JP: Oh.
6 SD: And therefore DICK couldn't come. I don't know where that
7   came from.
8 BW: I asked SYLVIA um.
9 SD: No, I'm SYLVIA, remember?
10 BW: Yes, and I'm BARBARA remember? I asked SYLVIA if there had,
11   had, there had in fact been um, any commitment to DICK
12   coming down. If arrangements, if a date had been set, and
13   she hedged...
14 SD: I said no.
15 BW: ...that no, there hadn't been a date...
16 SD: That's not an hedge. It's a direct answer, no it hasn't
17   been set.
18 RS: You've really drawn some conclusions about that.
19 JP: What were the conclusions?
20 BW: The conclusions were that DICK would not be, be coming down
21   in October because you would be to busy to see us. We
22   would get, we would get pushed to the back burner.
23 JP: Why?
1 BW: Because that's what has happened in the past.
2 JP: When?
3 BW: In the month of August. When Dick um, made
4   arrangements to come down three times.
5 JP: Uh-huh.
6 BW: And he had to cancel.
7 JP: I was away on vacation, and I wanted to be, well he had
8   the option of coming when I wasn't here. And TRISH was
9   gone a lot too, then, and so was SYLVIA. Ano we really
10   wanted to make sure that our whole team was here when you
11   came, when he came. both of you would have all
12   of our time.
13 BW: Are there arrangements, did you make arrangements to have
14   Dick come down in October?
15 JP: No I haven't. There's something that you don't know
16   about, that I think maybe I should tell you about because
17   it will eventually come up. Bobbie Sachs has some very
18   serious surgery and that has complicated things
19   tremendously. And so things like arranging for Dick to
20   come, the normal time I have to talk with her about
21   things, all of that, has been disrupted by something that
22   she did not plan. And so there are some very, very
23   genuine reasons why, not only things like when is DICK
1   gonna be here, I haven't got that settled. Cause I
2   literally have not been able to communicate with his
3   normal, the way I normally do with his treatment team
4   right now. Cause of what's happened. And also I'll be
5   away a couple of extra times this fall. Once in October.
6   Once in December. To do workshops for Bobbie. And Iím
7   doing those as a favor. And she would do that for me.
8 BW: No I didn't. I had no way of knowing that Bobbie was, was
9   ill.
10 JP: Well, that's cause I didn't say anything. I didn't want
11   it to distract from your visit, with your husband. She
12   was already hospitalized then.
13 BW: Is it too personal to ask what, what is wrong?
14 JP: She had a spinal fusion.
15   (Pause)
16 SD: And she's doing well. Didn't I hear you say she's making
17   a good recovery. Just takes time from tnat.
18 JP: Yep.
19 BW: Serious. Uncomfortable surgery. Sorry to hear that.
20 JP: Well I knew you would be, and it was something you know,
21   that I didn't want to get you sidetracked with. Because I
22   knew when Dick came down. And so did DICK.
23   (Pause)
1 BW: See nobody...
2 RS: I can appreciate your compassion.
3 JP: Yeah. Cause I think that all the parts that are, um, out
4   and being real tough right now also really care.
5 BW: Who is seeing Dick and George in Bobbie's absence?
6 JP: I don't know that right now. I know that Dick explained to
7   you that he has four different therapists, I believe. As
8   to who he sees and whenever he sees always just for
9   himself, one he sees every week, and there's a person he
10   does body work with and he has another person he sees,
11   can't remember, I know that all those ingredients are
12   there for him except for obviously, Bobbie, I'm assuming
13   all that's going on.
14 BW: And how about George?
15 JP: I don't know how it's being handled at the hospital or
16   who's covering for her. So when things like that happen,
17   things get discombobulated. And that's taken some more of
18   my time. In terms of, of more professional obligations
19   that I wouldn't normally have, (UI) . But on the whole I
20   know it's business here except that I'm (UI) . It wouldn't
21   mean much for the other patients to know that.
22 BW: No.
1 JP: So I'm not sure whether DICK will come before the November
2   conference or not. I would like him to.
3 BW: (UI)
4 RS: (UI)
5   (PAUSE)
6 BW: I'm disappointed that Dick can't come. Be here before
7   November.
8 JP: I didn't say that. I said I don't know whether he can
9   come before the November conference. (UI)...between now
10   and then, but I'll be flying up to Chicago anyway. And
11   I know I' 11 be working with George (UI)
12 BW: Are you sure that you'll be working with George?
13 JP: Well, that's if their treatment team still wants me to,
14   but sure. That's the plan.
15 SD: Do you still want Dr. PETERSON to meet with me?
16 JP: There are lots of folks that don't know Dr. PETERSON in a
17   year.
18 SD: I asked that question cause I was under the impression
19   that some folks thought the children who were um, MPD
20   won't gain group treatment.
21 BW: Well I am. very glad that George is not down here. I think
22   that was the wisest decision that Dick and me made was to
1   make sure that he was close to DICK and (UI) and Doctor
2   Sachs is a, as the main therapist.
3 JP: Um hum.
4 SD: Well that's a little different reason then I've heard
5   before. I just wanted to check that out.
6 JP: Yeah, I've got some real negative things about how
7   horrible it was.
8 SD: No, this reason thing, recently what you've just said, and
9   I felt made a lot of sense to me.
10 JP: Sure but I heard some other things that would sure make it
11   certainly reasonable that you wouldn't want me to see your
12   son up in...
13 BW: What did you hear?
14 JP: ...Chicago. Hum?
15 BW: What did you hear?
16 JP: I heard that you felt that they were just being treated
17   horrible here. But that you were sure glad that your son
18   was being treated up north.
19 BW: That's true. I am glad that he is being treated up North.
20   I have no idea how the children are being treated on the
21   unit, on the unit over there. I would not want him in
22   this team.
23 JP: What's that about?
1 BW: I find this team abusive and manipulative and I don't feel
2   that Bobbie is that way and I don't feel like people up in
3   Chicago are that way.
4 JP: Down here they are abusive and manipulative?
5 BW: Yes.
6 JP: And how does that, manifest itself?
7 BW: In meetings like this.
8 JP: How is this? So you'd rather have us one at a time where
9   you can manipulate? Then for us all to meet together?
10 BW: Well there are occasions where I get all three of you, I
11   only get all three of you when you, when you, you know.
12   Want to back me into a corner.
13 SD: Or when we come to support you.
14 JP: Or when we meet with your husband. How is this abusive
15   (UI)?
16   (Pause)
17 PS: Because what I would get from it is that somehow it's
18   become abusive for um, different ones or us to say we're
19   glad to see you, to say that we appreciate your
20   compassion. And somehow it would be the message that I
21   would get, is...this is what happened.
1 SD: I said hi to you and smiled as we started down the hall
2   together. You didn't make any response whatsoever. Was
3   that abusive?
4 BW: You mean right now?
5 SD: Uh-hmm.
6 BW: No. I knew that it was gonna be a confrontation.
7 SD: And a what, did you know it was gonna be a welcoming also?
8 BW: I don't hear it as a welcoming.
9 RS: And you know what I meant Saturday someone else that you
10   have [a distorted here.]????
11 JP: That's real helpful to know. And it's a real big step
12   that you want to hear it from Sylvia. My question is what
13   do you need to do between now, now and the time that Dick
14   and (UI) come, I mean is this the persona, whatever I call
15   it right now, that you would want to be directly
16   addressing Dick and have, what do you want to accomplish?
17   Normally there's, you've done things, that there's been a
18   piece of work you've done in between times, and so my
19   question would be, what is it that you and I did?
20 BW: Well I thought that um, I could continue working with
21   Lillie um, on being (UI), because I think that...
22 JP: I'm talking about what you need to do in therapy, with
23   your therapist, (UI) not your therapist.
1 BW: I think it's basic to my problem.
2 JP: I would guess right now that if uh, if the parts are out
3   most of the time, I'm thinking most of the time, that you're
4   basically doing a tremendous amount of cult work and you
5   don't want your cult thinking to be changed evidently, so
6   you're putting up a great big wall. And throwing out and,
7   and uh, cascading along that wall, across that wall, (UI),
8   calling us abusive and manipulative which is exactly what
9   I have sensed you've been doing ever since Dick left. Is
10   being abusive and manipulative.
11 BW: And I guess I try to stay in my room and isolate as much
12   as possible.
13 JP: Well ye who, ye who have doth sharp tongue doesn't need to
14   spend much time doing it. I think you're very effective,
15   I mean you're extremely effective.
16 BW: Well if you think I'm such a detriment to the unit why
17   don't you, why do you want to keep me here?
18 JP: Didn't say that. I said you're extremely effective. And
19   I'm asking you what you would like to accomplish between
20   now and the time DICK comes. For example, say if he were
21   to be able to come before the end of October.
22 BW: I would like to work some more around safety. And you
23   know, there would be kinda some specific questions as to,
1   like, are, you know, is the grange safe, seem to
2   indicate...
3 JP: Well right now we're dealing, right now with whether
4   you're safe, because right now we have the cult. And so
5   what do we do now with what you need to do, and what you
6   need to work on. Unless you all want to keep this part of
7   yourselves as whole and complete cult as possible for Dick.
8   I mean I'm not sure that, DICK's reaction would be and well
9   I think sure it can be arranged, I think I could do it
10   through Deborah right now, would be to arrange a family
11   session on the phone. For you to be able, you can
12   certainly try all this out on Dick, and see what his
13   reactions are, and, and have a family session on the
14   phone. That, that can be arranged. Well I think I can do
15   that right now without Bobbie. I, I would need to check
16   I've never asked Bobbie, But I think that would be okay.
17 BW: Well, that was one of the things I was gonna ask Dr.
18   Seward anyhow, because um, this, wouldn't this use one of
19   Dick's therapy times?
20 JP: Uh-huh.
21 BW: And isn't there another, limited amount of therapy
22   sessions that he has per year, (UI) policy, so
1   I was thinking that if he was monitored from down here, I
2   have a (UI).
3 JP: Uh-huh.
4 BW: If he was monitored from down here...if we, our
5   conversation...
6 JP: The less one has to keep track of the (UI), the alters
7   stay out, further out.
8 BW: If the conversation were monitored from down here by you
9   or...
10 JP: By whom?
11 BW: By Dr. Seward, or you...
12 JP: How has it been?
13 BW: It's been that, well, that you and Dr. Sachs have both
14   been on the phone, but I'm saying if Dick could call from
15   home that way, and if he would still be able to hear what
16   was being said, but he wouldn't have to give up a session.
17 JP: I can ask about that.
18 BW: Cause I, I think it's important, that you know Dick....
19 JP: I think it's real important for him to hear you. Because
20   there's no point in talking about safety right now.
21   You're not a safe person.
22   (Pause)
1 BW: What would you like me to work on? Thank you. Well
2   obviously what I plan to work on is not what you have in
3   store for me so I might as well just ask. I have no
4   recent memories of, of abuse of Dick or George coming up, so
5   I'm not gonna...
6 JP: Cult alters don't have memories of abuse because
7   everything's hunky dory. We just abuse our husband and
8   son, it's okay. And we abuse our treatment team too. And
9   we abuse the people around us, you know, mostly like a,
10   sort of a thunder cloud. See nothing has changed in your
11   reality except you. You still have the same treatment
12   team. How long has it been since DICK came? Has it been a
13   week in a half or two weeks?
14 RS: Yeah, about two weeks.
15 JP: Ummm. Two weeks on Wednesday? Well we need to really
16   think about how much...
17 BW: (UI)
18 JP: Of course not. How can you work on safety (UI) How can
19   you work on safety when you can't even identify a safe
20   treatment team and all of a sudden it's been.. it's
21   evaporated. Your basic issues around just your
22   environment here...
23 BW: It's true, I do.
1 JP: Uh-hmm.
2 RS: Need to work on safety then you gotta distort.
3 JP: Yeah, she's doing a really good job. What are you all
4   gonna do about that? I mean to me doing abreactive work
5   around how the distorters and the, and the strong cult
6   alters that are here now, or you all, how's that gonna
7   work out? (Pause) I mean I assume y'all came out here to
8   be in therapy. You're invited to be in therapy. We're
9   glad you're here and we also expect you to work.
10 BW: Can we handle it?
11 RS: I think it took a great deal of courage to be out Saturday
12   and talk to me after all that time. I think it takes a
13   great deal of courage to be out so much right now.
14 JP: Um hum. And courage in the system to trust us enough to
15   know that we're not (UI) . That we really are here.
16 BW: Well I, I am struggling with, whether I am being a big
17   fool or whether...
18 JP: What's a fool? That's a cult thinking, they make a fool.
19   I think sometimes in the last week especially I saw it all
20   the time and I saw you. That the cult was making you into
21   something (UI), that they must have done that to you,.
22 BW: You know they have. You know that Emily, because we, we
23   worked on that.
1 JP: And when you first came here, there were times when you
2   wore lots and lots and lots of make-up.
3 BW: When I first came?
4 JP: Uh-huh. (UI)....came across in the same way, and it's
5   been the same parts, there were hurting the same ones...
6 BW: Do you think I have too much make-up on now?
7 JP: Un unh. No. But I think that really varies, in that
8   there are times when you were feeling artificially made
9   up, (UI). And I think you all have many things to work
10   through. And those are just as important to work through.
11   And you need to be out here in therapy, doing those pieces
12   of work, and getting them ready with Sylvia and abreacting
13   them with Trish. Dick invited all of you out to work, and
14   Dick wants to love you, you better take him up on the offer
15   and then you're also doing the work. And at first that
16   means testing the (UI) and making sure they're here for
17   you. And let me tell you. You're sure doing a good job
18   for Carol in group.
19 BW: I'm only calling them as I see them.
20 JP: She really likes it.
21 BW: I know she (UI)...really appreciated it.
22   Um hum. How are you ever (UI)...if you all don't work out
23   the distortions, it's gonna be like living in a, what do
1   you call it, a fun house, where all the mirrors are and
2   every thingí know where all the mirrors make things
3   look different than they really are.
4 BW: I hear that (UI)
5 JP: You hear about the distortions? Cause I don't hear, I'm
6   not sure you hear what you have to do if you're
7   distorting. See I'm still the same person and so is
8   SYLVIA and so is Dr. SEWARD. Yeah, and Trish, and yet I,
9   what I hear is that you are somehow seeing us in very,
10   very different ways. And there's really all kinds of
11   words that are abusive and manipulative and this, that and
12   the other and, obviously (UI)...the whole month of
13   October. You know Dr: SEWARD last October she said the
14   same thing about October and I think it has to do with it
15   also being a very important cult month. Of course tonight
16   is (UI) and I think it has to do...cause you said the same
17   thing last October and I couldn't figure out what that was
18   about. And I wonder whether there are little ones inside
19   that were abandoned and hurt a lot in October of every
20   year?
21 BW: Well, October is the month of my birthday.
22 JP: (UI)...profound abuse.
1 RS: So what was Rosemary and the others probably saying is
2   that they're really afraid.
3 JP: Probably.
4 BW: I don't feel like you're here for me now. I feel like I
5   just got reprimanded and I knowí I believe, that I will
6   behave (UI). I will only say nice things on the unit and
7   (UI)...and I will avoid being out of my room as much as
8   possible.
9 JP: Who was like this in your family? Was your mom like this?
10   (Pause)
11 BW: I'm not understanding...
12 JP: Who talk...
13 BW: what?
14 JP: Who talked like that?
15 BW: This was the expectation that my mother had of me. And I
16   learned (UI).
17 JP: And so the bad feeling that you're feeling about how (UI)
18 BW: And I think (UI)
19 JP: That must be a really scary feeling.
20 BW: She wasn't (UI) do it cause you know that George is
21   involved, George and Dick are not involved in that kind of
22   thing, and to lose...
23 RS: (UI)
1 JP: (UI)
3 JP: What's happening?
5 BW: I'm not sure.
6 JP: And see I don't know what that means.
7 BW: I don't even know (UI).
8 JP: That somebody will (UI) to do whatever it feels
9   like. Is that something about you understanding (UI)?
10 BW: I don't know how to explain it.
11 JP: Is that something that you understand (UI)?
12 BW: I don't know what you can understand.
13 JP: That's real different than what you just said.
14 BW: No. Is this okay?
15 RS: I just asked a question.
16 BW: I don't want to lose my son If possible. I will do
17   whatever it takes...
18 JP: Even work through these parts?
19 BW: keep my son...
20 JP: Even work through these parts? Because what you all need
21   to know is that we'll help you here, but how you are is
22   not uh, something that's consistent with having a non-cult
1   family layer so that you're gonna do whatever you need to
2   do to keep your husband and your child, that means you're
3   gonna work through your issues here. Work, work through
4   what happened to cause you to feel the way you do and
5   distort the way you do. You must of done some very bad
6   things, to make things conceivable. You had to practice
7   (UI)...And do just right. Sounds like it would be very
8   helpful for your next task in therapy to do the real work
9   with Sylvia and how the distorters came to be. And then
10   whoever to abreact that. So that the cult parts that are
11   hiding behind the distorters, will be able to see the (UI)
12   without the distortions. See, the distortion protects all
13   of you from the, the real knowledge. You just live in a
14   fun house, and you're distorters (UI)
15 RS: And it's all (UI).
16 JP: Uh-hmm. So I invite the distorters or those who know
17   about the distorters, to come (UI). Wouldn't it be neat
18   to be able to see the world the way it really is?
19   (PAUSE)
20 JP: And your cult leaders could decide if you really want the
21   cult or if you really do want to join (UI)
22 BW: When are you gonna believe that I'm sincere about
23   treatment?
1 JP: I do, that's why you're here. That's why we're inviting
2   you to take the next step. See what you're saying has
3   nothing to do with what I just said.
4   (PAUSE)
5 JP: I'd really encourage you Sylvia, to just focus with Barbara
6   on distortions and how they came to be because that needs
7   to (UI). And the cult parts won't let you deal with that
8   cause that's their protection against reality. And we're
9   never supposed to see the (UI) . I'm gonna be real angry
10   when (UI)
11 BW: (UI)
12 JP: Safer right now than (UI). That's when I heard you
13   journal about, is how the distortions came to be.
14 RS: I wonder how accurate (UI)
15 BW: I don't remember when it was.
16 RS: About the (UI) of deception (UI)...Dr. Peterson...(UI)
17 BW: Probably...(UI)
18 RS: Okay, we got through this on Saturday. In your
19   prediction, how quickly did the (UI)?
20 BW: As quickly as...(UI)
21 RS: And has it happened in here?
22 BW: No, it happened when Dr., (UI)...when he was...(UI).
1 RS: That was me, it wasn't Dr. Peterson...
2 JP: I didn't...
3 RS: ...I wrote the order.
4 JP: ...I didn't know anything about your appointment.
5 RS: I wrote that order.
6 BW: Well why didn't you say something to me.
7 PS: Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. We can get into that
8   tomorrow if you wish, I'll be glad to. But we were just
9   talking about your retaliation from Dr. Peterson and what
10   your prediction is about, and what my prediction is. Was
11   I...(UI)
12 BW: Well I don't expect you to come down, lying down here in a
13   (UI)
14   (END OF SIDE A)
16 RS: intentions were and I was told that eventually, I
17   was told that the expectation (UI) I would have already
18   retaliated. And I hadn't. That was real difficult to
19   deal with. So the same kind of thing I think is going on
20   right now. Can you accept that?
21 BW: I know what I have to do.
1 RS: It's real difficult to look directly (UI) what happens
2   aren't exactly what you expect them to do. It's real
3   difficult (UI) to do that.
4 JP: I need to ask a question Dr. SEWARD and I feel that I'm
5   (UI) but I can't ignore it because my ah, my guts are
6   really telling me something, and I may be wrong. But with
7   your concern over whatever the, whatever was said on the
8   gynecological exam and you said you weren't on suicide
9   precautions and all that I've watched you do this evening,
10   cause I need to know if we're being (UI)...that that's
11   another way for deeper parts to really make us feel
12   extremely inadequate as a treatment team. And a while
13   ago, I missed that you were self mutilating, to the point
14   where you were bleeding. And I wonder If somebody now is
15   doing that...
16 BW: That's not true. I told what that was.
17 JP: Uh-hmm. Well I want to ask now...
18 BW: And that was...
19 JP: ...that I'd like that, I'd like to ask the fingers...
20 BW: Alright.
21 JP: ...If there's any harm at all to the body that's going on.
22   If there's any reason that you should be on precautions
1   and that we're missing things, because I don't want to
2   miss anything.
3 BW: But I want you to hear very clearly that I was not self
4   mutilating, that I have...
5 JP: I'm talking about...
6 BW: ...cysts that fill up with pus every once in a while...
7 JP: I'm wanting to ask you...
8 BW: ...and when it breaks sometimes blood comes out.
9 JP: I want to ask right now.
10 BW: Well I wanted to make, I want, I want you to understand
11   that. And that's what I told LISA.
12 JP: Uh-huh. And I'm talking about whether or not any part of,
13   any part of (UI), is (UI) any part of the body.
14 BW: She was very, very (UI) with her exam today.
15 JP: I want to ask the fingers whether there's any part all the
16   way down in any way, that is hurting or doing something to
17   the body. And that's the most automatic non-hypnotic
18   signal that I've ever seen from you. And that makes me
19   not know what to do.
20 RS: I think somebody was moving that finger.
1 JP: And you see I would expect the cult parts to have a harder
2   time in keeping the body safe. And certainly not to be
3   able to do.
4 BW: But somebody came through on the other hand.
5 JP: Yeah.
6 JP: And I'm real concerned that parts down deep feel protected
7   and hurt. And I, I'd like to ask the fingers if those
8   parts down deep, are real aware that we're right here for
9   all of you, no matter what. And (UI)...that we'll remain
10   here for you. I hope the cult thinking hasn't taken over
11   your whole system. And that indeed the parts are
12   listening. And are aware, and know that this is what has
13   needed to come so that these parts can have equal
14   opportunity in therapy and be able to work through their
15   issues together.
16 BW: Thanks guys.
17 JP: Thank you very much. Don't smile. Someday you may learn
18   about that.
19 BW: I just wish I (UI)...had done to make you hate me so
20   much.
21 JP: Well I really consider it an honor that all of you said
22   that because it's obvious that's not true, then you know I
23   love you. And I'm here for all of you. And I love you in
1   a healthy way as a therapist loves someone that they've
2   worked with for a long time. And I watch you grow and
3   blossom and develop, and now take these very, very big
4   risks.
5 RS: (UI)
6 JP: Of course it does. And for them to shut down. But that's
7   okay, isn't that something, you are doing more cult talk
8   with your hands tonight than I've ever seen you do. And I
9   just think it's really neat. That everybody is talking at
10   every level.
11   (Pause)
12 JP: You know roses have thorns.
13   (PAUSE)
14 JP: And if there are parts that are even more difficult that
15   want to know if it's safe to come out, need to hear, hear
16   again a reassurance. That we'll help you with the
17   difficulties and we'll help you stay here. Just like we
18   said. We're right here with you.
19 BW: How much longer do you think I need to stay?
20 JP: Stay where?
21 BW: Here.
22 JP: As long as you need.
23   (Pause)
1 BW: So I won't have any possibility, there's not gonna be any
2   possibility of really being a family?
3 JP: That's not what DICK said at all and I'm so sad that you
4   distort what DICK said.
5 BW: I know what DICK said.
6 JP: You distort what DICK said.
7 BW: He doesn't control my mind, you do.
8 JP: Oh and that is cult too. And again with opposites that
9   means that you know that I don't control. And right now
10   the cult is controlling your mouth. And that must be
11   pretty frustrating when the cult controls your mouth. It
12   must be really scary Sylvia. It's like being a puppet, a
13   marionette. And that must feel bad. But things can be
14   different, you can work on that. So the distortions and
15   also Sylvia, about how does one become a puppet. I guess
16   that must have been a lot of torture. Real deep torture
17   at an early age. I really appreciate you all sharing.
18 BW: Are you gonna put me back on SP?
19 JP: (UI). And you all can do that as punishment. And that's
20   what I talked about, (UI)...but with all the warnings this
21   evening, I needed to ask, and ask if there are doctors
22   who....
23 RS: (UI)
1 JP: I only ask the questions, (UI)
2 BW: Can I still go outside and sit on, when the smokers go
3   out?
4 RS: Somebody said yes.
5 JP: Sure you can.
6 BW: I really am gonna miss my walks.
7 JP: (UI)...Wish we could figure that out for everybody on the
8   unit. And we're really stuck right now. Cause we'd like
9   you to take walks. We don't know how to do that.
10   Different precautions, we would like that to happen for
11   everybody.
12 BW: What about um, physical therapy?
13 RS: I can arrange for you to still have that.
14 JP: Yeah. I'm so proud of you, you're doing such a good job.
15   (Pause) And the best is yet to come you know.
16   (Pause)
17   (Door opening)
18   (Background noise)

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