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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #353, Sides A & B - Date: 7/24/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

JP: Judith Peterson, Ph.D.

RS: Richard Seward, M.D.

AB: Alice Brown

PT: Patricia Taylor

BAG: Bill A Green

LA: Brenda Green

SD: Sylvia Davis

CS: Carol Smith

DA: Diedra Aspan

UF: Unidentified Female

UI: Unintelligible


1   (Beginning of Side A)
2 BAG: Would you tell me why?
3 LA: Because of some things that have come to light in the
4   last week.
5 BAG: Would you mind telling me why? (metronome in background)
6 JP: Would you like me to start?
7 LA: No. That’s okay. I can do it. The three of us,
8   Carol, Alice and I, have had memories that you are
9   part of the cult and that you have molested the girls and
10   that is partly what this meeting is about today.
11 BAG: And you believe that?
12 LA: Yes, I believe that.
     
    1
     
1 BAG: That’s the biggest bunch of hogwash I ever heard in my
2   life when the No. 1 and 2 experts in the whole world that
3   you take -- you studied under cleared me completely.
4 JP: Then we need to talk about that.
5 BAG: That’s fine. Let’s talk.
6 JP: Well, I went up to Chicago, which you’re aware of because
7   you signed releases, and I talked with Dr. Brown and Dr.
8   Sachs and I talked with Dr. Levitt, who did the testing.
9 BAG: Dr. Levitt?
10 JP: Uh-huh.
11 BAG: And I had some false information given - - well uh, Dr.
12   Sherman said that he was wrong 50 percent of the time.
13 JP: Well, when I talked with Dr. Levitt and I talked with Dr.
14   Sachs and I talked with Dr. Brown, what we talked about
15   was the fact that they found a person that they had
16   talked to me about, a person that is very kind and
17   caring, a person who has a lot of feelings, a person that
18   misses his family, a person that has been very confused
19   about what’s been going on, who doesn’t understand, who
20   sometimes is real, real calm and at other times gets real
21   agitated. And then the other things that they also
22   found, which really came together in terms of a normal,
23   whole picture, have to do with what Dr. Levitt found.
24   And I had not gotten Dr. Levitt’s report before and not
     
    2
     
1   read about it and his concerns are that you have a lot of
2   difficulties that are extremely serious, that are under
3   profundus type, that indicate that you’re perfectly
4   capable of very violent behavior, or real extremes, and
5   that when we put it all together it seems that it’s real
6   possible that the parts of you that are real kind and
7   caring and the part of you that’s very confused may not be
8   aware of the part that can be real cruel and real
9   unreasonable and real violent.
10 BAG: What memory do you have of me --
11 JP: I want to talk to you --
12 BAG: -- molesting the girls?
13 JP: -- about what the reports are, what the findings are.
14 BAG: Dr. Sherman was absolutely sure there was no way
15   possible, Dr. Brown was absolutely sure. When -- the
16   last day I saw him, the last day I was in the hospital,
17   he threw up his hands and he said, "There’s no way." Dr.
18   Sachs threw up her hands and hugged me and said, "There’s
19   no way."
20 JP: Well, Dr. Sachs and Dr. Brown are getting together with
21   Dr. Levitt and really discussing the case. Feel that
22   they did not give a complete picture either to you or to
23   me.
24 BAG: However, I do have -
     
    3
     
1 JP: And they really apologized for that.
2 BAG: However, I do have extreme knowledge of mechanical and
3   that’s the only reason I could come out with some of those
4   pictures. And I was trying to be honest as possible to
5   get as much out of that session as possible and all of
6   that. And just because of my knowledge --
7 JP: They apologized for their lack of ability to be able to
8   put all of the information together --
9 BAG: But --
10 JP: --when you were there.
11 BAG: --however, couldn’t Dr. Levitt be wrong?
12 JP: Anyone can be wrong.
13 BAG: Okay. So why should you be able to come out and say I’m
14   definitely cult?
15 JP: I didn’t say that.
16 BAG: Well, now, wait a minute.
17 JP: Your wife said that. I said that you’re violent, that you
18   have difficulties with being able to control yourself.
19 BAG: I have never harmed anyone in my whole life.
20 JP: I don’t know that.
21 BAG: I do.
22 JP: Okay. That’s fine.
23 BAG: I have to live with me.
24 JP: I know.
     
    4
     
1 BAG: And my conscience is clear.
2 JP: I’m glad. What you need to know is that the extremes in
3   terms of the test results are really profound, that it
4   wasn’t a wishy-washy thing that Dr. Levitt was saying. It
5   was of great concern. And it was out of great concern
6   that the people in Chicago sat down with me and said,
7   "Look, there are all of these different things going on.
8   We think this person really could be dissociative because
9   it’s so different." That we think that all of it’s real,
10   the kindness and the caring.
11 BAG: How did I get in the cult, if you’ll --
12 JP: I don’t know.
13 BAG: -- ask my wife?
14 LA: The same way I got into it. You were born into it.
15 BAG: There’s no cult business in my family. Come on, Brenda.
16   You -- if I -- if I am in the cult, is that why you
17   tortured me like you said you did? Is that why you
18   drugged me like you said you did, to get me in the cult?
19 LA: You were born into it just like I was.
20 BAG: You’re saying my mother and daddy was in the cult?
21 LA: That’s right.
22 BAG: You don’t lie?
23 LA: No, I don’t lie.
24 BAG: What proof do you have?
     
    5
     
1 LA: I have memories.
2 BAG: What proof do you have?
3 LA: I have memories.
4 BAG: What proof? What proof do you have?
5 LA: I have memories.
6 BAG: What proof besides memories?
7 SD: BA, this isn’t a court of law here.
8 BAG: I don’t care about that. It seems to be. And it waited
9   until Friday before he even could take this up. If this
10   was so serious, why didn’t you take it up Monday, Dr.
11   Seward?
12 RS: Because the meeting was scheduled for today.
13 BAG: Oh.
14 JP: Well, there’s another reason for that, Dr. Seward, and
15   that is I wasn’t -- I had not even returned from Chicago
16   on Monday. I got in on a plane at ten o’clock Monday
17   night.
18 BAG: Then it seemed like Tuesday would have been fine.
19 JP: No, because --
20 BAG: Oh, but --
21 JP: No, Let me -- let me finish. Okay?
22 BAG: But, however --
23 JP: But -- just a minute. Let me finish.
24 BAG: Nobody wants to let me finish.
     
    6
     
1 JP: The way that I finish is that I actually go all the way
2   through my sentence. And what I want to say is that it
3   was of such importance that I wanted to be able to sit
4   down with the treatment team and be able to say to them,
5   "I have grave concern for BA and his family and we need
6   to work out how to help them best."
7 BAG: If you had great concern --
8 JP: Because we think out what we do. Yeah, we think out what
9   we do.
10 BAG: If you had great concern, how come it had -- it could
11   wait four days? If it was concern to my safety, how come
12   it could wait four days?
13 JP: I didn’t say it was concern for your safety.
14 BAG: That’s what Dr. Keraga said, that y’all was very concerned
l5   for my safety. Why could it wait four days instead of
16   immediate action?
17 JP: I needed time, and I don’t come to the hospital on
18   Tuesday. And, you know, we can spend time now on which
19   day of the week it is, we can spend a lot of time on
20   that, but here we are now with the information.
21 BAG: Well, what proof do we have that I am in the cult? Will
22   somebody give me some actual proof I can see? Alice?
23   Carol?
24 CS: I have memories, too.
     
    7
     
1 BAG: Memories?
2 CS: Yeah. Memories are real.
3 BAG: Really?
4 CS: Yes.
5 BAG: They’re not made up?
6 CS: No--
7 BAG: Like the poison --
8 LA: No--
9 BAG: -- over the cemetery?
10 LA: It can’t be made up, not when the three of us have
11   memories that coincide with each other and we have no
12   contact with each other.
13 BAG: And you wasn’t coerced at all?
14 LA: No, we were not coerced.
15 BAG: You were not programmed?
16 LA: No.
17 BAG: None at all?
18 LA: The three of us have had the same memories and they have
19   coincided with -- with -- all together and there is no
20   contact between us at all.
21 BAG: Sure.
22 LA: This is the first time I have laid my eyes on these girls
23    
24 BAG: Why can’t you look at --
     
    8
     
1 LA: -- since the last family session.
2 BAG: -- me when you talk to me then if you’re not lying?
3 LA: Because I -- I just choose not to make eye contact with
4   you.
5 BAG: Why? Because you know you’re lying?
6 LA: No, it’s not because I know I’m lying.
7 BAG: Yes, you do.
8 JP: What happens if you look at him?
9 LA: He might signal me --
10 BAG: Oh, yeah.
11 LA: -- to try to shut me down.
12 BAG: How would I signal you?
13 LA: Like the dog you brought to the hospital.
14 BAG: That you asked for.
15 LA: Like the journal you brought to the hospital.
16 BAG: That you asked for.
17 LA: The picture of the journ -- of the red barn. Did I ask
18   you for a picture of the red barn?
19 BAG: You just -- that’s the one you chose. There was four or
20   five journals.
21 LA: No. You brought one to me.
22 BAG: That’s the one you chose.
23 CS: The clown.
24 LA: The clown.
     
    9
     
1 BAG: You asked for it.
2 LA: I didn’t ask you for the dog with the hearts on it.
3 BAG: You did.
4 LA: No, I didn’t.
5 BAG: Yes, you did.
6 JP: What --
7 LA: No, I didn’t.
8 JP: What does the family want to say to BA?
9 BAG: Yeah. What does the family want to say to me? I’d like
10   to hear that.
11 LA: That we cannot tolerate this.
12 BAG: And what are you gonna do?
13 LA: It’s got to stop. Either you choose to go into treatment
14   or there will be no family.
15 BAG: Well, then I will file for divorce Monday morning. How
16   is that - -
17 LA: That is your choice.
18 BAG: -- because you’re full of shit?
19 LA: That is your choice.
20 BAG: That is my choice and I will cut insurance today.
21 RS: You have not the option to do that.
22 BAG: I do have the option.
23 RS: No, you don’t.
24 BAG: These are not my responsibilities.
     
    10
     
1 BAG: You asked for it.
2 LA: I didn’t ask you for the dog with the hearts on it.
3 BAG: You did.
4 LA: No, I didn’t.
5 BAG: Yes, you did.
6 JP: What --
7 LA: No, I didn’t.
8 JP: What does the family want to say to BA?
9 BAG: Yeah. What does the family want to say to me? I’d like
10   to hear that.
11 LA: That we cannot tolerate this.
12 BAG: And what are you gonna do?
13 LA: It’s got to stop. Either you choose to go into treatment
14   or there will be no family.
15 BAG: Well, then I will file for divorce Monday morning. How
16   is that --
17 LA: That is your choice.
18 BAG: -- because you’re full of shit?
19 LA: That is your choice.
20 BAG: That is my choice and I will cut insurance today.
21 RS: You have not the option to do that.
22 BAG: I do have the option.
23 RS: No, you don’t.
24 BAG: These are not my responsibilities.
     
    11
     
1 RS: The insurance will continue. We’ve already checked into
2   that.
3 BAG: I checked into it yesterday, too, and it will not
4   continue. I talked to the insurance company yesterday.
5 RS: I’m not arguing with you on that.
6 BAG: Fine. The day I quit employment, that’s the day the
7   insurance ends.
8 RS: I’m not gonna argue with you.
9 BAG: Good. Take your chance. You’ll find out.
10 JP: Would you like to hear what the girls have to say?
11 BAG: Yeah, I sure would.
12 SD: You girls need to know that your insurance is gonna be
13   secure.
14 BAG: No, it won’t.
15 SD: Don’t worry about that.
16 BAG: I’m sorry. If you don’t put this lie on me, then fine.
17   In other words, you broke up my whole family, huh?
18 AB: It doesn’t have to be broken up.
19 BAG: Yes, it does.
20 AB: You can go into therapy just like we are and get better.
21 BAG: For how long? 10 years, 20, 40?
22 LA: For as long as it takes if you want to stay a family.
23 BAG: Boy, they’ve really got you brainwashed, don’t they?
24 LA: No, I have not been brainwashed.
     
    12
     
1 BAG: When did you come up with this memory?
2 CS: I came up with mine Friday night.
3 BAG: What did it way?
4 CS: You want to hear what my memories were?
5 BAG: I sure would.
6 CS: Okay, fine. I’ll read you my memories.
7 BAG: What about you, Alice? Do you have yours? Do you have
8   yours?
9 LA: Yes, I do.
10 BAG: Read it.
11 CS: I was 15 years old. Me, you, mom and Alice, along with
12   various other cult members, are all in a field and I’m
13   tied to a tree in the field. The tree has several
14   markings on it. I don’t know if I should show him the
15   markings.
16 RS: Go ahead.
17 BAG: Where’s the proof? What field?
18 RS: Can you let Carol finish reading?
19 BAG: Well, I’d like to take a little bit of time, if I may.
20 RS: I think Carol has something she needs to read.
21 SD: BA --
22 BAG: May I have a little bit of time?
23 SD: -- you need to listen. You need to listen.
24 BAG: I am listening.
     
    13
     
1 SD: And you will get some time. You need to let her finish.
2   Listen carefully.
3 BAG: Well, how am I gonna remember all that from the
4   beginning?
5 DA: BA, every time you raise your voice at her, it’s
6   inappropriate.
7 BAG: Well, this is something to raise my voice at.
8 PT: No. No, it’s not. Let her finish.
9 CS: You are holding a coiled bull whip and a cattle prod.
10   And as you uncoil the whip it snaps towards my body and I
11   scream but it quickly - - I am quickly silenced by a
12   gunshot to the west of my head. As the whip coils around
13   my body and the tree, it is jerked back tearing skin-from
14   my arm. After three or four snaps from the whip, the
1S   whip is then handed to mom who takes her turn and then
16   passed to Alice. After it is all over, I’m then unchained
17   and untied from the tree and Alice is tied and chained
18   and the same process is repeated with each of us, on and
19   on and on.
20 BAG: When did this occur?
21 CS: When I was 15.
22 BAG: Where? You was 15 for a year. Please tell me when and
23   where.
     
    14
     
1 CS: I don’t know exactly when during the year. I assume it
2   was the fall.
3 BAG: Assume?
4 CS: Yes.
5 BAG: Why?
6 LA: It was the fall.
7 BAG: How do you know?
8 CS: Because there were autumn leaves all over the ground.
9 BAG: There’s no autumn leaves around Houston, Texas.
10 LA: If you remember the first year we were back here, which
11   would have been when Carol was 15 going on 16, there
12   was a lot of color.
13 BAG: Where was this field?
14 LA: It was out off of Highway 288.
15 BAG: Where?
16 LA: I don’t remember the exact location, but I remember it was
17   out on Highway 288. That’s where a lot of the cult
18   activities are held.
19 BAG: 288 runs a long way, don’t it?
20 JP: Do you rem -- you have the same memory? Is that what
21   you’re saying?
22 LA: Yes, I do.
23 BAG: It couldn’t have been somebody else that you --
     
    15
     
1 RS: Let me ask you another question, Brenda. Uh, have you
2   heard Carol say this at any time up until --
3 LA: No, I have not.
4 SD: And you have not heard me repeat this?
5 LA: No, I have not.
6 CS: Do you have the same memory?
7 BAG: It couldn’t have been somebody else during one of your
8   rendezvous then at night programmed -- making you
9   programmed to think it was me?
10 LA: No.
11 JP: Carol, could you read the end of the memory?
12 BAG: How do you know -- what proof do you have --
13 JP: Just a minute. Just a minute.
14 BAG: - - that it’s me, though, and not somebody else?
13 JP: About -- what happens to everybody, Carol? Do I
16   remember that right?
17 RS: Uh-huh.
18 CS: Yes. Even you were beaten by each one of us.
19 BAG: Where’s the marks? Where was the marks? I never had
20   marks in my life like that. Where was the marks on you?
21   Where was the marks on your mother? Where’s the marks on
22   Alice? May I ask? Why are you looking at her?
23 CS: Because I don’t know where the marks are.
24 BAG: If you’re whipped with - -
     
    16
     
1 CS: They’re not there anymore.
2 BAG: -- a bull whip, I think there is gonna be marks all over
3   you, I believe. If you’re shocked with a cattle prod, I
4   believe there would be marks on you.
5 PT: BAG, as long as your voice escalates like that, you’re
6   gonna shut them down and you’ve done that before.
7 BAG: Shut them down? I want them woken up.
8 PT: BA--
9 BAG: I’m just asking where was the marks? How come I never had
10   no marks on me? How come you never had any?
11 JP: Does it upset you to think that you might have been
12   whipped?
13 BAG: It upsets me to think that anybody could imagine that I
14   could do something like that.
15 JP: Does it upset you to think that you could have been
16   whipped?
17 BAG: No. It upsets me to think that I can do something -- or
18   be accused - -
19 JP: I’m upset.
20 BAG: What?
21 JP: I’m upset that something happened to you.
22 BAG: I think it is a made up story because there was never - -
23   where was you whipped at? Where was I whipped at? Where
24   was your mother whipped at, or Alice? Where?
     
    17
     
1 CS: Well, if we were tied to a tree, it’s kind of obvious that
2   it was just about everywhere.
3 BAG: Not obvious. It don’t have to be obvious. Where? Where
4   was the marks? And there would be marks on you, wouldn’t
5   that -- isn’t that true?
6 LA: Could I say something here?
7 JP: Uh-huh.
8 LA: The cult teaches you how to do things where you don’t
9   leave marks.
10 BAG: Come on. A bull whip would leave marks. I don’t care
11   where you -- how you do it or unless it’s just rubbed
12   against you and -- slightly.
13 LA: No.
14 BAG: You telling me that you can take a whip and -- would you
15   mind demonstrating that?
16 CS: No, unh-unh.
17 BAG: Well, why not? Prove it. If the cult can teach you to
18   be that good, prove it. I will be the witness. If you
19   can leave a - - whip me with a bull whip and not leave a
20   mark on me, please teach me -- or show me, I meant. Show
21   me.
22 CS: You want to be taught?
23 BAG: I want to be shown how. I want to see you whip me with a
24   bull whip and not leave a mark on me.
     
    18
     
1 RS: We don’t allow that here.
2 BAG: Oh, in other words that’s bull, what you’re telling me.
3 RS: No. We don’t allow physical damage.
4 BAG: You’re -- that’s bull. Well, now wait a minute. If
5   there’s no marks, there’s no physical damage.
6 JP: What an interesting piece of logic that is.
7 BAG: Yeah, because with a bull whip -- you show me -- you can’t
8   even whip a bull without leaving a mark I don’t think.
9 JP: I guess that’s how rapists feel -- or tell you about rape.
10 BAG: I don’t know. I have no idea. You cannot whip somebody
11   with a bull whip and not leave a mark. You know that.
12   That’s -- that’s common sense. You know you’re lying,
13   Brenda, Carol, Alice.
14 CS: No, I’m not lying.
15 BAG: You know you’re lying.
16 LA: We are not lying.
17 BAG: You mean to say that I have put up with this for the last
18   six months to finally be brought into this?
19 JP: With the attempt to bring you into therapy. That’s all.
20 BAG: How can you prove to me --
21 JP: It’s a process of time for you to be in therapy.
22 BAG: How can you prove to me?
23 RS: If you really want proof, you’ll go back to Chicago for
24   however long it takes to uncover this.
     
    19
     
1 BAG: And who is gonna pay my bills?
2 RS: The insurance company.
3 BAG: Gonna pay my rent? Who is gonna take care of the rent?
4 RS: You don’t need rent.
5 JP: This is a real serious family problem.
6 CS: Do you want me to read the second memory?
7 BAG: Wait a minute. How long would it take up in Chicago?
8 RS: It depends on you.
9 BAG: How long are you planning on keeping her here?
10 RS: I have nothing to do with her treatment.
11 BAG: Where is Dr. Keraga? She was supposed to be here today.
12 PT: She should be arriving -- she’s tardy.
13 SD: But that’s a red herring.
14 RS: We’re talking about how you would accept proof.
15 JP: Uh-huh.
16 BAG: First I’d like to see how you whip somebody with a bull
17   whip and not leave marks.
18 RS: It’s irrelevant.
19 BAG: You can’t even hit that table and not leave a mark.
20 RS: Are you willing to go find the light inside?
21 JP: All we’re inviting you to do is join therapy.
22 RS: Would you be willing to set that aside over there off
23   your belt?
24 BAG: I need my beeper.
     
    20
     
1 RS: Would you be willing to set it over there?
2 BAG: What -- Oh, yeah.
3 RS: Thank you.
4 BAG: I just turned it off. Sure, I’d go on, because I want to
5   get to the bottom of this thing. I’ve been through hell
6   this last week and the last six weeks or months, and now
7   you’re telling me I’m involved and you’re telling me my
8   mother is involved, my dad’s involved. Is that what
9   you’re saying, too?
10 LA: That’s right.
11 BAG: You’ve got proof of them? Do you have proof of them being
12   involved?
13 LA: I have memories.
14 BAG: Do you have proof?
15 CS: What kind of proof do you want?
16 BAG: I don’t know.
17 LA: Exactly. What proof do we have?
18 BAG: Times, dates, places, persons.
19 LA: I have memories.
20 BAG: Time, dates, places, people, names.
21 LA: Who is Ivy Chapman?
22 BAG: I have no idea. Who?
23 LA: I thought you might have a clue as to who he was.
24 BAG: Afraid not. Who is it?
     
    21
     
1 RS: Somebody who paged me today about Carol and Alice.
2 BAG: I have no idea. What did he want?
3 RS: I didn’t call back yet.
4 BAG: Hmpf.
5 CS: The second memory should be pretty interesting.
6 BAG: Wait a minute. I’m not -- proof.
7 JP: The second what, Carol?
8 CS: The second memory.
9 BAG: I’d like to hear some of her memories.
10 CS: We have the same memories.
11 BAG: Well, I’d like to hear it from her.
12 CS: Okay. Mom, what’s yours?
13 LA: I have a memory of us all being at a cult meeting at
14   Christmas time.
15 BAG: How about looking at me and telling me that?
16 LA: No.
17 BAG: Why? Because you’re lying?
18 LA: At Christmas time -- we were strapped in a chair and
19   shocked by you, all of us. If you would like to see a
20   drawing of the chair, I could show it to you.
21 BAG: I’d like to see proof -- besides memories. Will memories
22   hold up in a law -- a court of law?
23 LA: I’m not a lawyer. I don’t know.>
     
    22
     
1 JP: You know, the problem is -- is that the family feels
2   enough of a worry that they’re expressing their concerns
3   to you.
4 BAG: Concerns? It sounds like condemnation.
5 LA: No. It’s concern.
6 BAG: It’s condemnation.
7 RS: You need to hear that both of these girls have
8   independently told me that they care very much about the
9   part of you that’s very kind and loving and --
10 BAG: What about my wife?
11 RS: -- And wants to be back with you.
12 BAG: What about my wife? What about my wife?
13 LA: I care about you, too.
14 BAG: It looks it, calling me one of you. You sure you’re just
15   not made up on this, that someone else was put in there
16   in my place and you was told under hypnosis?
17 CS: It doesn’t happen that way.
18 BAG: That’s funny. Sylvia told me it did.
19 SD: I said that might be.
20 BAG: Might have been.
21 SD: Uh-huh.
22 BAG: So don’t tell me they don’t happen that way, Carol.
23 CS: That’s not what it was.
24 BAG: How do you know it wasn’t?
     
    23
     
1 LA: Because we have our memories. Our memories corroborate
2   each other.
3 BAG: So it could have been the same person.
4 RS: Are you willing to go find out?
5 BAG: And what if I’m -- you’re wrong? What if you’re wrong?
6 JP: Is this a battle about right and wrong, about --
7 BAG: It’s a battle about some -- me uh, maintaining my job
8   without being made a fool of.
9 JP: Here you’ve got a family that’s terrified.
10 BAG: A family that’s crazy, I believe, a family that’s screwed
11   up, that has been junked with and programmed. Is that
12   what the whole purpose was to come in the hospital to be
13   programmed?
14 JP: Why do you keep saying that?
15 LA: No, I don’t think so.
16 JP: What does that mean?
17 BAG: What does it mean? Evidently they’ve been programmed, the
18   same thing --
19 JP: What does that -- what does that mean?
20 BAG: Same thing, what I learned from reading all these books.
21 CS: Are you saying --
22 JP: What all -- just a minute. Just a minute, Carol.
23   What books?
24 BAG: Huh?
     
    24
     
1 JP: If you --
2 BAG: MPD, Discovery and Mystery of MPD.
3 JP: Uh-huh. What does that have to do with programming?
4 BAG: Huh?
5 JP: I don’t believe the word is in the book.
6 BAG: I believe it is --
7 JP: What --
8 BAG: -- several times.
9 JP: Tell me about them.
10 BAG: I don’t remember exactly but it does --
11 JP: Well, tell me something about programming.
12 BAG: It says something about uh, how they use different things
13   to program people to make them think like it’s something
14   else. I think y’all are.
15 JP: Why?
16 BAG: If I was to take legal uh, thing against every one of you
17   for breaking up my family, how would you prove that you
18   didn’t, or could you, legal action? How could you prove
19   that you didn’t?
20 RS: We don’t have to.
21 BAG: Yeah, you do --
22 RS: Unh-unh --
23 BAG: -- because they came in here --
     
    25
     
1 RS: -- You have to prove that I did.
2 BAG: That’s easily -- that’s easily proved now.
3 CS: Can I read -- can I say something?
4 BAG: That’s easily proved right now.
5 JP: Why?
6 BAG: Why?
7 JP: Uh-huh.
8 BAG: When we came in here, we was a whole family. Now each
9   one has gotten --
10 JP: How? What’s happened? The three of them are asking you
11   to join them in therapy. How is that a family coming
12   apart?
13 BAG: What is this? A family affair now?
14 JP: How is that a family coming apart when they’re asking you
15   to join them in treatment - -
16 BAG: Because --
17 JP: -- at a whole new level?
18 BAG: AT a whole new level?
19 JP: Yeah. How is that a family coming apart?
20 BAG: Easily.
21 JP: How?
22 BAG: I lose my job.
23 CS: You’re working with cult people.
24 BAG: How do you know?
     
    26
     
1 CS: I told you Wednesday night when you were here that Bill
2   --
3 BAG: You have no proof.
4 CS: -- Kessler molested me.
5 BAG: She had no -- she didn’t have no memory of it. Carol
6   had no--
7 CS: She wasn’t there and neither was Alice.
8 BAG: You said the whole family.
9 CS: I told you Wednesday night whenever you were here --
10 BAG: The whole family.
11 CS: -- that I begged you to stay for that family group and
12   you wouldn’t.
13 BAG: You said the whole family.
14 CS: No, I didn’t.
15 BAG: Yes, you did. It might have been somebody -- some part
16   of you, but it -- somebody that said the whole family
17   because I turned around and asked your mother and told
18   her you said the whole family.
19 CS: Maybe she just doesn’t remember it yet. We don’t all have
20   to remember everything at the same time.
21 BAG: Oh, but you -- you’re Dr. Carol, huh? Huh? What do
22   you remember, Alice?
23 AB: I remember you hurting mom.
24 BAG: How?
     
    27
     
1 SD: Let her talk. If you’re gonna ask her a question, I
2   insist that you be quiet while she responds and you don’t
3   jump on her between words, please.
4 BAG: I would like a full explanation, please.
5 AB: Plenty of times at the house I remember many, many times
6   you and mom would get in arguments. I remember very
7   distinctly when I was --
8 RS: Could you sit on your hands, please?
9 BAG: No, I will not. I’ll leave them just like this, please.
10 AB: When I -- when Carol and I -- Carol was about
11   nine and I was maybe six or seven, you had mom tied to a
12   lawn chair and you were beating her with a -- I don’t
13   remember -- but you were beating her and she was tied to
14   a lawn chair. It was in the trailer.
15 BAG: You was how old?
16 AB: I don’t remember. Six or seven.
17 BAG: Six or seven we wasn’t in no trailer, or nine. We was in
18   a house.
19 RS: Do you recall anything about that?
20 LA: Yes, I do, and I think you were younger. I think you
21   were more like four or five.
22 BAG: Well, that’s getting memories. That’s really
23   collaborating, isn’t it?
     
    28
     
1 JP: You see, independent of whether or not there’s a cult
2   issue, there’s the issue of you have three women you’re
3   trying to live with that remember a violent person and
4   that’s what the report talked about and that’s what we’re
5   talking about in terms of you getting help, the whole
6   family getting help.
7 BAG: How come I have no memories of this?
8 JP: People often don’t have memories of their violence or
9   their rage. That’s very, very common.
10 BAG: That’s not violence or rage. That’s pure --
11 JP: What -- Beatings of her, I call that violence.
12 BAG: No, that’s not violence or rage. That’s pure craziness.
13 CS: Do you remember the night whenever um, you tore up my
14   room?
15 BAG: Yeah.
16 LA: I remember that night. I remember I called Dr. Seward.
17 CS: And I called Dr. Seward.
18 BAG: Yeah.
19 CS: Well, mom called Dr. Seward and I asked to spend the
20   night down at another person’s house.
21 LA: And I also called Diedra that night, too.
22 BAG: All right. What about it?
23 CS: You don’t call that violence --
24 BAG: I call it --
     
    29
     
1 CS: -- or rage?
2 BAG: No. Did you get hurt?
3 LA: As a matter of fact, she did get hurt.
4 BAG: She did?
5 CS: I was bleeding.
6 BAG: That was from her own stuff that she tripped over in her
7   room.
8 LA: No, I don’t think so.
9 BAG: I think so.
10 CS: After you threw it at me.
11 JP: Would you be willing to work on the violence?
12 BAG: I didn’t think there was any violence.
13 JP: So beating your wife in a lawn chair --
14 BAG: I don’t think I beat my wife in a lawn chair.
15 JP: Okay.
16 BAG: I don’t care what they said.
17 JP: Okay.
18 CS: Oh, you don’t care what we say?
19 JP: Okay.
20 BAG: I think this is all made up.
21 JP: Why?
22 BAG: Because there’s no proof of it.
23 JP: No, why would anybody make it up? Why would they do this
24   to you?
     
    30
     
1 BAG: Why would they do it to themselves?
2 JP: No. Why would they do it to you? You --
3 BAG: You tell me why.
4 JP: What would be the reason?
5 BAG: Maybe they love this place here and they don’t want to get
6   out of here.
7 JP: Why -- but why would they then focus on you?
8 BAG: You got me.
9 JP: Why would they do that?
10 BAG: Why would they --
11 JP: I think they care about you and love you.
12 LA: We do care about you and love you and --
13 BAG: Oh, I can tell.
14 LA: -- and want you to get help.
1$ BAG: I just -- oh, come on.
16 LA: I don’t know why that’s so hard for you to see.
17 BAG: Because you’re crazy.
18 CS: She’s not crazy.
19 BAG: She is crazy, you’re crazy and Alice’s crazy for making up
20   all this.
21 LA: We are not crazy.
22. CS: I am not crazy.
23 BAG: Yes, you are.
24 CS: Neither is Alice.
     
    31
     
1 BAG: Then how in the hell can you whip somebody with a bull
2   whip and not leave marks? You explain that to me and I’ll
3   believe you. You explain that one thing. That one thing
4   blows your whole story.
5 JP: Do you want to tell your dad about the other memory that
6   you talked about?
7 CS: He won’t give me a chance to.
8 BAG: Tell it.
9 JP: Do you want to?
10 CS: Okay. If I tell you about this memory, I want you to be
11   quiet until I’m finished --
12 BAG: Tell it.
13 CS: -- saying it.
14 BAG: Just say it.
15 CS: Okay? The second memory is placed in Matamoros, Mexico.
16   I am approximately four or five years old. Alice is just
17   barely able to walk. I’m sure you remember that trip.
18 BAG: You were not four years old.
19 CS: I was about to go to kindergarten, if you don’t remember.
20 BAG: You was five going on six.
21 RS: She said five.
22 BAG: Going on six.
23 CS: Four or five is what I said.
24 BAG: Five, though. You was going on six.
     
    32
     
1 CS: Does it matter?
2 BAG: Yeah. You was only three months away from six.
3 JP: Can you let her finish?
4 LA: Please.
5 CS: Alice was just barely able to walk and still in diapers.
6   We attended a big slaughter of about seven people and
7   hundreds of animals. It was a sacrificial festival. We
8   were supposed to return to Matamoros in 1988 or ë89.
9   There was supposed to be another festival. There was,
10   but we weren’t there but it still happened. You were
11   there for the first one. We all had to kill an animal
12   and eat certain body parts, mostly genitals and head
13   organs. A big thing was to eat the heart while it was
14   still beating. Do you remember that? Do you?
15 BAG: See?
16 CS: She was very young.
17 BAG: So? Hey, you got memories back to 16 months, I believe.
18 CS: Yeah.
19 BAG: Well, if she was two going on three --
20 CS: Maybe she just hasn’t gotten to it yet.
21 BAG: Oh. Always a good excuse.
22 CS: You know --
23 BAG: Where did you get the word Matamoros from?
24 CS: Matamoros?
     
    33
     
1 LA: It’s a place in Mexico. We’ve been there.
2 BAG: We have?
3 LA: My God, why is that so difficult?
4 BAG: You have?
5 LA: Yes.
6 BAG: When did you go there?
7 LA: When we first got married.
8 BAG: Really?
9 CS: Uh-huh.
10 LA: Uh-huh.
11 CS: We all went to Mexico. You don’t remember that?
12 BAG: We didn’t go to Matamoros.
13 CS: Yeah, we did.
14 BAG: No, we didn’t.
15 PT: BA, you just got finished saying she was almost six years
16   old when she went.
17 BAG: But she wasn’t -- we went to Mexico but --
18 CS: I remember --
19 BAG: -- we didn’t go to Matamoros.
20 CS: Yes, we did.
21 BAG: No, we didn’t.
22 LA: Yes, we did.
23 BAG: We passed through it at high noon. I remember that much.
24 RS: What -- what do you mean by high noon?
     
    34
     
1 BAG: High noon.
2 RS: What does that mean?
3 BAG: Lunchtime. It was on our way down to Vera Cruz.
4 RS: So you were in Matamoros?
5 BAG: Passing straight through, never stopped. Didn’t stop for
6   gas.
7 RS: But you were in Matamoros?
8 BAG: We passed through it. We did not go in it. We passed
9   through it.
10 CS: How do you pass through something without going in it?
11 BAG: We did not stop. That’s how.
12 PT: BA, could you lower it a little bit? It’s real
13   frightening when you talk like that --
14 BAG: It real frightening to hear this crap come out.
15 PT: But the louder you get --
16 BAG: The more crap they come out with, the more louder I’m
17   gonna get because it’s a bunch of lies.
18 PT: BA, the louder you get the more you shut them down and
19   you’re aware of that.
20 BAG: Can you prove it? Prove some of this stuff to me,
21   please.
22 RS: Go to Chicago and find out.
23 BAG: Oh.
     
    35
     
1 SD: BA, does it occur to you that if this stuff -- if they
2   really believe this stuff, okay --
3 BAG: Does that make it real?
4 SD: Listen to me. Let me finish the sentence, please. If
5   they really believe this stuff that they’re saying and
6   truly believe that you are active cult, then the only
7   reason that they would have for coming forth with this in
8   this meeting is because of loving you and wanting you to
9   get treatment.
10 BAG: But --
11 SD: Let me finish the statement. If they did not care about
12   you, they would not be coming forth with this
13   information.
14 BAG: Does that make it real, though?
15 SD: Because it’s risky to them.
16 BAG: Does it make it real?
17 SD: No, I didn’t say that. I said they believe that it is
18   real, all three of them do; and, therefore, to be saying
19   this to a person that they believe is active cult, isn’t
20   that something like a death sentence?
21 LA: It certainly is.
22 SD: It’s a tremendous risk that they are taking which means,
23   right or wrong, whatever, they’re caring about you and
24   they’re risking to put their lives on the line that you, a
     
    36
     
1   supposed or alleged active cult member, are now gonna
2   know that they’re telling this stuff. The only reason
3   they would have to do this is caring for you and hoping
4   that you will join the family in therapy.
5 BAG: If I am active cult, why would I go to an FBI man that
6   worked on the Matamoros slaughter down there or whatever
7   and try to get help to find out what’s going on with them?
8 SD: BA, did you hear what I just said?
9 BAG: Yes, I heard what -- did you hear what I just said?
10 SD: I want to know what I said --
11 BAG: And I got the --
12 SD: -- because I think you’re shutting it off.
13 BAG: No. I heard what you said.
14 SD: What did I say?
15 JP: Can you repeat it?
16 BAG: Yes, I sure can. The only reason they came forward this
17   -- with this stuff is because they love me. If they
18   didn’t love me, they wouldn’t have come through it --
19   forward because it was dangerous to them.
20 JP: Uh-huh.
21 SD: They believe that.
22 BAG: However, if I am active cult -- they believed it. Okay.
23 JP: Uh-huh.
24 BAG: They believe that. They believe I’m active cult.
     
    37
     
1 SD: Can you believe in the caring? Can you believe in the
2   caring?
3 BAG: It’s hard right now.
4 SD: Take a moment and let it soak in.
5 BAG: I can’t let it soak in right now because it’s hard.
6 SD: All right.
7 BAG: Because I can’t believe that -- how can -- all I get is
8   words. I can’t get proof.
9 JP: Uh, that’s right. When people talk in a therapy session
10   about past events, people don’t bring in the size of
11   houses, they don’t bring in bodies, they don’t bring in
12   dead parents or whatever it is that has been in the past,
13   nobody does. People say things in words, BA. In every
14   therapy session, that’s what happens. Words happen.
15   People don’t bring wheelbarrows of stuff in and dump it on
16   the floor in the middle of the room. People talk.
17   People talk to each other. People talk about their
18   worries, their concerns.
19 BAG: So how do you know if it’s real or not? How do know it’s
20   not just made up?
21 JP: It sounds real scary, doesn’t it?
22 BAG: Yes, it sure does.
23 JP: Yeah.
24 CS: How do you think we feel?
     
    38
     
1 BAG: How do you know it’s not made up?
2 LA: Really. How do you think we feel?
3 BAG: Ho do you know you’re not making that stuff up?
4 RS: Why would you want us to take a chance?
5 BAG: Well, that’s what you said about the poison and it was
6   made up.
7 LA: That’s what I don’t understand. Why are you willing to
8   take a chance with your fucking life? Excuse me for
9   cussing.
10 BAG: What life? I haven’t been in danger. Nobody is
11   threatening me.
12 JP: What if five percent of it were right?
13 BAG: Huh?
14 JP: What if five percent of it were right?
15 BAG: That’s a guess.
16 JP: What, no what -- what if just five percent were right?
17 BAG: What if -- That would mean 95 percent’s wrong.
18 JP: What if five percent of it was correct?
19 BAG: That would mean 95 percent of it was wrong.
20 JP: What if five percent of it -- if five percent of it was
21   right, five percent of the violence?
22 BAG: If five percent of it was right - -
23 JP: Yeah.
24 BAG: -- you would say it was just rare -- rage.
     
    39
     
1 JP: So it’s just rage that you’d kill one animal instead of a
2   hundred.
3 BAG: Oh, now, wait a minute. You’re talking about --
4 JP: Five percent.
5 BAG: -- getting mad and maybe --
6 JP: Five percent.
7 BAG: I ain’t -- that ain’t right because I never killed no
8   animal, I never bull whipped or been bull whipped or --
9 JP: What would happen if you got help?
10 BAG: I tell you what. I would believe you 100 percent if you
11   would show me how you can bull whip somebody and not
12   leave a mark.
13 RS: All you have to do is pad it and you will get a bruise
14   and the bruise will go away.
15 JP: Uh-huh.
16 BAG: Where would the bruises be?
17 RS: Wherever it hit.
18 BAG: All right. How come you wouldn’t have bruises on you?
19 RS: It’s been quite awhile ago.
20 BAG: How come you wouldn’t notice is then?
21 RS: Bruises go away within a couple or three weeks.
22 BAG: Well, how come you wouldn’t notice it the very next day
23   and say, "I wonder where in the world" - -
24 RS: You asked me a question and I answered it.
     
    40
     
1 JP: And what it sounds like is that it might have been normal
2   that everybody had bruises. You had them just as well as
3   everyone else.
4 BAG: No, I didn’t.
5 JP: And they didn’t know either, just like you don’t know.
6 BAG: I don’t even own a gun. Where would the gun come from?
7 CS: The gun was from another person.
8 BAG: Who?
9 CS: I don’t know who the person was.
10 BAG: Well who, Brenda? You’re supposed to have been -- had the
11   same memory, be able to verify her memory.
12 LA: It was a man named Robert.
13 BAG: Robert who?
14 LA: You don’t know last names.
15 BAG: Oh, come on. How do they know where to find you then if
16   they don’t know last names?
17 JP: Would it be dangerous for you to give first and last
18   names here?
19 BAG: Why?
20 JP: I’m just --
21 BAG: Why should be it dangerous?
22 JP: Excuse me. I’m asking Brenda a question. Just a second.
23 LA: His last name was Brady.
24 BAG: Who’s that?
     
    41
     
1 LA: It was a priest in the cult.
2 BAG: Where -- where did he live?
3 LA: I don’t know where he lived.
4 BAG: Now, wait a minute. How would you get together if you
5   didn’t know where he lived?
6 CS: Everybody has a meeting place. You don’t go to somebody’s
7   house.
8 BAG: How do you know where to go to the meeting?
9 LA: We’re contacted in a number of ways.
10 RS: BA, these questions are simple to answer. They aren’t
11   important.
12 BAG: Not to me.
13 RS: They’re not important. I mean, they can -- they’re easy
14   to answer in a hundred different ways and probably all
15   hundred of them have been used. I don’t know. What’s
16   important here is you want some help, you want to respond
17   to these three people in your family who want you to
18   continue to be in it -- only if you’re safe, only if
19   that’s a hundred percent certain. Do you want to respond
20   to that invitation?
21 BAG: And what if I’m a hundred percent safe right now?
22 RS: We have lots of indications that you’re not, including the
23   -- the assessment in Chicago.
     
    42
     
1 BAG: From one doctor that another doctor that works for Dr.
2   Brown said is wrong.
3 RS: There are at least --
4 BAG: 50 percent of the time.
5 RS: -- three doctors who have agreed with the assessment.
6 JP: Dr. Brown and Dr. Sachs and Dr. Levitt sat. down with me
7    
8 BAG: But Dr. Sherman --
9 JP: -- and said they had grave concern. Dr. Sherman is a new
10   person in the field compared to them.
11 BAG: He claimed that he had seen --
12 JP: Dr. Sherman --
13 BAG: -- over 50 cases of this with a spouse.
14 JP: -- is a new person in the field and he would say that any
15   day. He and I have talked about another case on the
16   phone together just by chance and he has said that to me.
17   Dr. Brown and Dr. Sachs and Dr. Levitt have many, many
18   years of experience that Dr. Sherman does not have. He
19   is new.
20 RS: And Dr. Brown and Dr. Sachs are willing to work with you.
21 CS: I have more information to give you if you’re willing to
22   listen.
23 BAG: I want to hear from my wife.
24 LA: Certainly. I’ll be glad to.
     
    43
     
1 BAG: How come none of my handwriting has changed in my
2   journals? How come they didn’t pick up on a thing like
3   that?
4 CS: My handwriting doesn’t change either.
5 BAG: Yes, it does.
6 CS: No, it doesn’t.
7 LA: Mine doesn’t either.
8 BAG: Yes, it does.
9 CS: My handwriting does not change.
10 BAG: I beg your pardon. If you’ll go back through your old
11   journals that you showed me.
12 CS: Oh, do you have any of my old journals?
13 BAG: You showed me. You’ve got them all.
14 RS: That’s not a prerequisite. It doesn’t mean anything.
15 CS: Handwriting can change with mood change.
16 BAG: Not to a great degree.
17 RS: Handwriting is only an indicator. It’s not a -- not a
18   proof.
19 JP: What would you like to read, Brenda?
20 LA: This is from one of my parts named Don. I became aware
21   that something was wrong years ago. Brenda is a heavy
22   sleeper most of the time, but there were times when I was
23   awake and saw BA leaving the bedroom going to the girls’
24   rooms. And there was one particular memory when Charlie
     
    44
     
1   and Carmen were at our home at Christmas time and we woke
2   up in the middle of the night and Carol and Alice
3   were both in the same room and you left the bedroom and
4   went in to them and came back in about an hour.
5 BAG: You sure it wasn’t one of your alters doing that?
6 LA: No, it was not.
7 BAG: That alter tells the truth the whole time every time
8   without fail?
9 RS: Are you willing to take a chance?
10 LA: Are you willing to take a chance on that?
11 RS: Are you willing to take a chance that that electrical
12   stuff that goes up and down your body doesn’t mean
13   anything?
14 JP: You continue to volunteer that you feel that..
15 RS: In your feet. Are you willing to take a chance that
16   that’s nothing?
17 BAG: How many more tests can you run through than what I ran
18   through in Chicago?
19 JP: We’re not talking about having tests.
20 BAG: What are you talking about?
21 JP: Treatment.
22 CS: Therapy.
23 BAG: What kind of treatment?
24 CS: The same kind I’m in.
     
    45
     
1 BAG: Would you let Dr. Peterson talk, please?
2 JP: We’d have to discuss exactly what to do with Dr. Brown and
3   Dr. Sachs.
4 BAG: I mean --
5 JP: They’ve done their testing.
6 BAG: All the testing?
7 JP: Uh-huh. I think so. I -- I don’t know what more they
8   would do.
9 BAG: I don’t either.
10 LA: What do you have to lose by doing this?
11 BAG: A job.
12 RS: And if any of this is accurate, what you have to gain is
13   not only your family but if you’re really interested in
14   the job, you might find that you’re able to get a much
15   better job.
16 JP: A much better job.
17 RS: One that you don’t have to take money from --
18   (End of Side A)
19   (Beginning of Side B)
20 RS: Find that they’re much clearer than they’ve ever been
21   their entire lives, have much more freedom, particularly
22   within themselves to do things they never thought they
23   could do.
     
    46
     
1 JP: That lots and lots of energy is spent holding things in
2   that you can spend on your job later and spend having
3   good times with your family.
4 RS: To have a different job even, one that’s much -- much
5   better for you.
6 BAG: Well, what about her? She has gotten worse instead of
7   better. She has gotten worse instead of better. Look at
8   her.
9 CS: You mean as far as safety goes?
10 BAG: No.
11 JP: What do you mean by worse? Would you explain that to me
12   clinically?
13 BAG: Her mind.
14 JP: What’s wrong?
15 BAG: Well, look at her.
16 JP: I can see -- I can’t see her mind because it’s inside her
17   head.
18 BAG: But look at -- look at the condition of her face. She
19   wasn’t that slow or sad looking when she came in here.
20 RS: I think that has something to do with the way you’re
21   behaving if I were to make a guess.
22 BAG: I mean --
23 JP: I’m wondering if by the loudness and the sense of
24   attacking that she feels like she has to turn away.
     
    47
     
1 BAG: Well, let me ask you this --
2 JP: Like a lot of women do.
3 BAG: -- if I do go to Chicago, will she agree to see me before
4   I go?
5 RS: I don’t know what that would accomplish.
6 BAG: It would at least give me a bit of --
7 JP: And I would have to talk to the people in Chicago because
8   I know that they’re really, really wanting to treat people
9   that really want to be helped and so I think one of the
10   things --
11 BAG: Would you be willing to treat me -- to --
12 JP: One of the things that you and I would have to do would
13   be to make a list with -- with -- with uh, Diedra of the
14   things that you would want to accomplish if you went to
15   Chicago because uh, they’re the best people in the United
16   States and they only take a certain number of patients.
17 BAG: I made a list when I went up there.
18 JP: Well, you’ll have to make another list then.
19 BAG: But they failed me on that list.
20 JP: You’d have to make another list now, you and I and Diedra
21   would, and then we’d have to call --
22 BAG: When would you -- if we’re gonna do this, I want to do it
23   immediately, if possible.
24 RS: I’m sure that there’s a flight out tonight.
     
    48
     
1 BAG: No. I mean Sunday, leave out Sunday or -- what am I
2   gonna do? Just leave my stuff in my apartment and say,
3   "Y’all take it," or --
4 JP: I think that you’d have some thinking to do about what you
5   would do with all the things around you. And it would be
6   important to make a list of what it is that you want to
7   accomplish so I can then call them and say, "Is this
8   something" --
9 BAG: Well, the thing is if it’s -- to find out if any of this
10   stuff is true. That’s the number one thing. And then if
11   it is true, to do something about it.
12 JP: I think that it’s probably fairly certain from the girls’
13   fear and -- I mean girls, I mean all three of the ladies
14   in your life, that they’re afraid of your violence. That
15   that’s already there.
16 LA: We have worked very, very hard to get to the point we’re
17   at today and I am not willing to do anything that’s going
18   to put my treatment in jeopardy or my girls’ treatment in
19   jeopardy, and I don’t think they’re willing to do that
20   either. We have worked very, very hard and it took a lot
21   of courage for Carol to say what she said and for
22   Alice to say what she said, and I want you both to know
23   that I am very proud of both of you.
24 BAG: So I’m left out in the cold? In other words, I --
     
    49
     
1 RS: That’s your choice.
2 LA: -- am not saying that.
3 BAG: I get you this help and then you try to blame it all on
4   me. Right?
5 LA: I’m not blaming anything on you.
6 BAG: What are, you saying then?
7 CS: You know what?
8 LA: I am saying that you need help.
9 BAG: Why would I put you in here if I didn’t want you to get
10   help?
11 RS: We’re talking about you.
12 LA: We’re not talking about us.
13 CS: That’s part of my information.
14 BAG: Why would I put y’all in here? If -- I believe I was the
15   one insisting y’all come in that very night you left Dr.
16   Peterson’s office.
17 JP: What’s the information that you have?
18 CS: I wrote a letter last night.
19 BAG: But why would I put y’all in here?
20 LA: Give her time --
21 BAG: I’m asking you.
22 LA: - - to speak, please.
23 BAG: I’m asking you.
     
    50
     
1 RS: We answered that question last time we got together and
2   dealt with this.
3 BAG: I don’t think so.
4 JP: Can you wait a minute?
5 BAG: But --
6 JP: Can you wait a minute?
7 RS: Can Carol read her letter?
8 BAG: Let me get my whole question out first. Maybe it’s not --
9 RS: You’re repeating your question over and over again.
10 BAG: Well, that’s because I keep getting interrupted.
11 JP: Well, just ask it once then.
12 BAG: All right. Why was I put in here -- why did I insist you
13   come in the same night that y’all insisted that she was in
14   the cult actively? Why would I continue to make sure
15   that everything is taken care of while you’re in here?
16 JP: Okay. Did you ask now?
17 BAG: That’s it.
18 JP: Okay.
19 BAG: Now, give me an answer to that.
20 JP: Okay. Now, you can hear Carol.
21 CS: This is something that I feel is necessary for me to do
22   in order to progress any farther in treatment. I’ve been
23   contemplating this for about a week now and I have
24   decided that I don’t want to keep secrets any longer.
     
    51
     
1   refuse to remain loyal to the cult any longer. You have
2   done things in the past and in the present which have
3   hurt me physically, mentally and psychologically. This
4   is not an attack on your person but a confrontation of
5   your behaviors that have hurt me so deeply. There are
6   two specific incidents that I remember so far that are
7   very horrific and terrifying to even think about bus I
8   must break the silence and tell about them anyway. There
9   have been other times that you have hurt me in different
10   ways, all of your raging, the beatings in the three to
11   fifth grades and maybe even before that, all of the times
12   that you demolished my bedroom and constantly yelled at
13   me until I had it cleaned up. I’m a very scared person,
14   scared of you after all the things you have done and even
15   now in the present you are still continuing to abuse me
16   even while I’m in a psychiatric hospital attempting to
17   heal myself. You have in many ways attempted to sabotage
18   my treatment. Some examples include bringing the clown
19   that mom specifically stated was used to program me to
20   commit suicide, giving cult signals with money and using
21   hypnotic techniques to reprogram me during visits. These
22   behaviors have been observed by other patients here on
23   the unit as well as some of the staff. All of these acts
24   of abuse and treatment sabotage can only point to one
     
    52
     
1   thing, and that is that you are cult loyal and you need
2   help as soon as possible before you go any farther. I
3   have many feelings about all of the abuse and the
4   treatment sabotage that has shown up in the past few
5   weeks. There has been evidence of three more alters that
6   respond only to you that have been formed within the past
7   five months that I have been here. There is also
8   evidence that you formed them during visits. My feelings
9   are very strong. I feel extreme rage because of what
10   you’ve done. I feel sadness, betrayal, abandonment,
11   grief, and I don’t like to feel all of these things at the
12   same time. It’s not fair what you’ve done to me. You may
13   not remember doing any of these things but that still
14   leaves no excuse for anything that you’ve done. I’m very
15   sad to have to confront you like this, but this was the
16   only way I could voice my feelings and let you know what
17   you’ve done. I don’t remember doing any of these things.
18   If you don’t remember doing any of these things, then
19   please at least acknowledge that all of these things are
20   very real to me and acknowledge my feelings about these
21   acts against me and get help.
22 BAG: First of all, if I have no excuse for everything that I’ve
23   done, then you must not have no excuse for everything
24   that you’ve done.
     
    53
     
1 CS: No, I don’t.
2 BAG: So don’t condemn me.
3 CS: I’m not condemning you. I’m just saying --
4 BAG: You sound like you were.
5 RS: I think she made it real clear in her statement that she
6   wasn’t.
7 BAG: That she was - - she claimed I had no excuse for doing
8   whatever I had done, had supposedly done, because I have
9   no memory of ever doing anything to you.
10 JP: That’s how people often start is they start with amnesia.
11 BAG: Why is there no loss of time?
12 JP: Lots of people say that. That’s the -- one of the
13   definitions of amnesia.
14 BAG: I know it’s a definition of amnesia, loss of time.
15 JP: No. People don’t even remember. They don’t recall that
16   they’re losing time.
17 BAG: Brenda said that she lost hours at work and didn’t know
18   nothing about it.
19 JP: Some people have amnesia and don’t know they have amnesia
20   because they don’t know they lost time. There are two
21   things that I’d like to recommend to y’all as a family.
22   One is that you all commit to treatment over a length of
23   time, uh, whatever that amount of time is, that you all
24   need to be in treatment. And right now it’s very
     
    54
     
1   individualized work with maybe some family work here and
2   there but it’s very individualized work that everybody’s
3   doing. Everyone’s working on their own work at their own
4   pace. The other is, and I address this to you, Brenda,
5   because you’re the children’s guardian. My concern is
6   that the children be protected and that their
7   guardianship be turned over to CPS by you in order to
8   help with their recovery so that then you can renegotiate
9   at a later date as you recover and really work with them
10   on coming back together but emancipate them right now in
11   terms of really helping with their recovery in terms of
12   really pulling away from the parts inside that may still
13   think that they have to take the girls to the cult. That
14   that would be a real strong thing for you to do and I
15   think it would really help you and them. And those are
16   the two things that I would recommend.
17 BAG: What guarantee will she have that she would ever get them
18   back again?
19 JP: That would be up to her and -- and whoever would help out
20   with the -- with the protection and welfare of the girls.
21 BAG: In other words, you’re telling her to give her girls away?
22 JP: No.
23 LA: No. That’s not what I’m hearing at all.
     
    55
     
1 JP: And I don’t mean that in that way at all, Brenda. I thought
2   about it as I listened to the people in Chicago and as I
3   was flying back and I was thinking about everything and
4   thinking about you and your -- your tremendous struggle
5   that you’ve had and the tremendous struggle that I -- that
6   I feel really occurs in moms about their kids. Now,
7   Carol is already old enough to emancipate herself at
8   16 and so she can decide to be independent but Alice
9   can’t. And I would just like you to think about that,
10   about how it is that you can make a clear statement to
11   Alice that there won’t. be any more cult and so all that it
12   needs to be a concrete thing that’s done that allows for
13   that -- that giant step that I think will really escalate
14   Alice’s treatment and I think that that’s a real plus. I’m
15   thinking it might escalate treatment inside you in terms
16   of -- of everybody being very, very serious about
17   treatment. Just as you’re getting treatment, I think it
18   would escalate treatment inside everybody else. I -- I
19   think all of you can really work together, together
20   separately right now but together with a common goal.
21 BAG: How are we gonna ever get back together if I’m in Chicago,
22   Alice’s in who knows where, Carol is on the other side
23   of the world and Brenda is still here in Houston?
24 CS: We’re all still gonna be in she same hospital.
     
    56
     
1 BAG: Oh, yeah, you are? I won’t.
2 JP: Somehow I didn’t think that Carol was in China.
3 BAG: Well, if she goes to someplace and Alice goes someplace.
4 JP: I’m not talking about them going anywhere. I’m talking
5   about --
6 BAG: Oh, so you just get me out of the way?
7 JP: No, no, not at all.
8 BAG: How would you stay in contact with me?
9 CS: Telephone.
10 JP: What you need to hear --
11 BAG: Oh, yeah?
12 JP: Can I finish? What you need to hear is that I have other
13   families where we have some family members here and some
14   in Chicago. We’ve done this before with the Chicago team.
15   This is not the first time.
16 BAG: When did you ever get back together, or if you do?
17 JP: When the families are ready.
18 BAG: What determines when the family is ready?
19 JP: When both treatment teams decide and then you have
20   another treatment team. That’s a real strong thing for
21   you to have is -- a group of people to help you.
22 BAG: And what if I go up there and they find out all of that
23   is a bunch of bull and it’s just real to them in their
24   mind but it’s not true?
     
    57
     
1 JP: You probably can go up there and say you’re in treatment.
2   and just be argumentative like you are today --
3 BAG: No, I’m not --
4 JP: -- and do --
5 BAG: I don’t mean to be argumentative. I’m really asking an
6   honest question.
7 JP: Okay. Well, I’m honestly telling you that you probably
8   could spend a month or two and not get anywhere.
9 BAG: No, I wouldn’t do that.
10 JP: Or -- no. I’m just -- I’m just saying you need to know
11   that you’re perfectly capable of doing a very good job of
12   not -- of not doing therapy, of resisting. I think you
13   could do a very, very good job of that, an excellent job,
14   maybe the best job they’ve every seen, okay, a really,
is   really good job. Or I think you could do a really good
16   job of the parts that haven’t been able to be in therapy
17   to really be in therapy.
18 BAG: But --
19 JP: And the parts of you that are really angry and violent
20   are those parts that need to express themselves and stay
21   through the hospital.
22 BAG: However, though --
23 JP: Yeah.
     
    58
     
1 BAG: I see what you’re saying if I wanted to do that. I don’t
2   want to do that.
3 JP: If you don’t want to do it, there’s no point in going.
4   That’s why --
5 BAG: I’m talking about I don’t want to be argumentative and for
6   two or three months waste --
7 JP: That’s why you see we’d have to make a list and then we
8   have to see whether it meets the approval of the people
9   in Chicago because we fought to work with these people
10   and they -- these people are very difficult people who
11   need very specialized care and they only treat so many
12   people a year and so they have to approve of you.
13 BAG: How --
14 JP: And we’d have to make a list together about what it is
15   that your treatment goals would be and see if it passes
16   muster with the folks in Chicago.
17 BAG: I don’t think I’m getting my point across.
18 JP: What’s your point?
19 BAG: What if I went up there with the right goals and the
20   right attitude and everything and they still say, "Okay,
21   these guys are wrong"?
22 JP: They’re not gonna say that.
23 BAG: You’re absolutely certain?
24 JP: Uh-huh.
     
    59
     
1 BAG: And I know you’re an expert in the field, I know that.
2 JP: What I want to say is that these people believe there are
3   memories and they’re on their path to healing. Nothing
4   you do in Chicago is gonna prove or disprove what they
5   believe happened to them. These are their memories.
6   They’re not --
7 BAG: Right.
8 JP: Okay.
9 BAG: Okay.
10 JP: They -- they belong to them.
11 BAG: Their memories are real to them just like it did happen.
12   However, what if it was like what Sylvia said, suggested
13   to me, that it could have possibly been somebody else
14   doing that stuff to them and they were programmed to
15   believe it was me.
16 RS: It still would not explain, BA, the electricity that you
17   feel in your feet.
18 JP: Uh-huh. Because that’s something real you have
19   volunteered to Diedra.
20 BAG: I agree, and that has gone away the last --
21 JP: So it comes and goes. That’s what I hear. Is that right?
22 BAG: It hasn’t been for a while, though. Uh --
23 DA: You told me about the back.
24 BAG: Yeah, now in the back it does.
     
    60
     
1 JP: Where is that from? People don’t feel that normally.
2   never have. What’s that about?
3 DA: When you start feeling that, what did you do? What did
4   you tell me you did?
5 BAG: Well, one time I stopped and looked in the back of the
6   front seat I think -- the seat where that pocket is.
7 JP: Well, it was so real to you that you stopped your car.
8   That’s what Diedra was sharing.
9 BAG: Uh-huh. And I looked to see if there was anything (UI)
10   back there.
11 JP: What do you think?
12 BAG: I don’t know.
13 JP: Well, you’re either psychotic or something has happened so
14   you.
15 BAG: Is that funny, Carol?
16 CS: No, it’s not funny.
17 BAG: Then why would you laugh?
18 JP: I think she knows her daddy isn’t psychotic.
19 BAG: Why is her real daddy not involved in this stuff?
20 RS: He’s welcome.
21 CS: He’s very deeply involved in this.
22 LA: He certainly is.
23 BAG: Why aren’t you after him?
24 CS: Because it’s not safe to bring him in this room.
     
    61
     
1 JP: BA, they’re not after you. They’re trying to engage you
2   in treatment with them.
3 RS: He’s welcome to come into treatment. We’ll help him if he
4   wants.
5 JP: Uh-huh.
6 SD: That you’re the one that they want to get healed so you
7   can be a family again.
8 LA: You’re the one we love and we care about. Are we worth
9   losing?
10 BAG: Am I worth losing?
11 RS: That’s what we’re here about.
12 JP: Uh-huh. Because if you don’t get treatment, I think
13   that’s what they think will happen.
14 BAG: And what if you’re wrong? A possibility.
15 LA: Are we worth --
16 RS: You still have to explain the other stuff, BA.
17 LA: -- risking it?
18 BAG: What? What did you say?
19 LA: What I --
20 RS: I’m sorry, Brenda, if I stepped on you there.
21 LA: Are we worth risking loss just to prove yourself right?
22   Do you not care about us that much and care so much about
23   being right that you are willing to risk losing your wife
24   and your family?
     
    62
     
1 BAG: It seems like I’ve done lost you.
2 LA: No, you haven’t lost us.
3 BAG: How can --
4 RS: That’s why we’re here, BA.
5 LA: That’s why we’re here.
6 BAG: There has been no physical love or no privacy, no chance
7   to be a family for the last six months.
8 LA: It’s been as hard and difficult --
9 BAG: And yet you say we ain’t lost it?
10 LA: -- on us as it has been on you.
11 BAG: It don’t appear to be.
12 LA: It has.
13 BAG: It seems like you enjoy it now.
14 LA: No, I don’t. Do you think I enjoy not being able to see
15   my children?
16 BAG: Yeah.
17 LA: Do you think I enjoy not being able to see you?
18 BAG: Yeah, or you wouldn’t have put this restriction on me --
19 LA: You are dead wrong.
20 BAG: -- last week.
21 LA: You are dead wrong.
22 CS: She didn’t put the restriction on you. I did.
23 BAG: She said she did.
24 LA: I did it for myself.
     
    63
     
1 BAG: You can’t do it for her.
2 CS: I did it for myself and I asked Dr. Seward if he could
3   put it into place for mom and Alice, too.
4 BAG: Thanks a bunch. I appreciate that.
5 CS: I was worried about their safety as well as mine.
6 BAG: Oh, their safety. You’re gonna really get hurt in this
7   place. It makes sense.
8 LA: She has just told you that she has been reprogrammed
9   while you visited her.
10 BAG: I think that’s a bunch of bull.
11 LA: I’m sorry.
12 BAG: How did I reprogram you?
13 LA: I don’t --
14 RS: Let’s not get into that.
15 BAG: How did I reprogram you?
16 RS: Let’s not get into that BA, because we know that that’s a
17   fruitless search. The question is -- is can you allow
18   yourself to be treated as everyone in here in this room
19   is inviting you to do?
20 BAG: Are you telling me that if I do go into this treatment I
21   will have memories like they got?
22 RS: I’m not telling you anything of the sort.
23 LA: Don’t know.
24 CS: You might.
     
    64
     
1 RS: But. if there are memories there that are buried away
2   beyond your recollection at this point, that’s your best
3   chance to recover them and do something about is.
4 BAG: This is a dang nightmare.
5 JP: It is.
6 LA: Yes, you’re right, it is.
7 BAG: No. You can’t realize what. I’m going through right now.
8   Here I got -- I thought I was being supportive of a whole
9   family keeping them in the hospital, keeping them safe
10   and now I’m turning out to be the accused.
11 JP: I think that you each hurt each other, that you, BA, have
12   damaged physically and sexually and emotionally Alice and
13   Carol and Brenda, that Alice has physically, sexually
14   and emotionally abused Carol and Brenda and you, that
15   Carol has physically and sexually and emotionally
16   abused Alice and Brenda and you and that Brenda has done she
17   same thing to Alice and Carol and you, that you all
18   have victimized each other. And it’s not fair to you to
19   be the only one not in intensive treatment. Why should
20   you be left out? That’s not. fair.
21 BAG: It can’t be real.
22 JP: What I’m sorry about is that you haven’t been offered
23   help, attempts have been (UI). (pager goes off) And I
24   can tell you that you have an opportunity for changing
     
    65
     
1   it, that you have an opportunity for a real crossroads in
2   your life to happen now. And I can also tell you that I
3   would like to be able to talk to the people in Chicago
4   and I would like to ask them to consider seeing you again
5   and working with you. I would like to be able to do
6   that. I know that they won’t tolerate -- and I’ll speak
7   on behalf of the whole treatment team. I and all of us
8   will not tolerate - - in all good faith, we are helping
9   you and your family. We will not tolerate being accused
10   of things -- normally. That we’re here in all of good
11 4 faith -- offering assistance.
12 BAG: How long would you -- do you think something like that
13   would take?
14 JP: I don’t know. And I have to be very, very honest about
15   that just like I thought I was pretty good about guessing
16   how long the assessment would take. I think I was right,
17   wasn’t I, pretty much down to the day and right along that
18   time?
19 BAG: About two weeks.
20 JP: Uh-huh. Isn’t that what I said, just like now I’m gonna
21   say that I don’t know, that my sense is that going into
22   treatment would depend upon you and that you could -- I
23   can tell that you could be one of the very most best top
     
    66
     
1   of the list resister that they have ever met or you could
2   spend --
3 BAG: Not by choice.
4 JP: I know. I understand that. Or you could spend that time
5   instead having the parts of you really engage in
6   treatment that really want help.
7 BAG: So you’re saying there’s a possibility I am multiple or
8   dissociative or both?
9 JP: I can tell you right here right now in this room that I
10   think you’re dissociative.
11 BAG: But no -- not multiple?
12 JP: I don’t have anything to show that right now. I’m just
13   telling you what I see today with you -- clinical. What
14   I see today is that you’re dissociative and I think very
15   bad things have happened to you.
16 RS: What’s happening with your arm and your hands?
17 BAG: I’m just cold. Well --
18 JP: There would have to be no more threats about "I’m gonna
19   pull the insurance, I think you’re programming my family,
20   I think you’re terrible people." The people in Chicago
21   won’t tolerate that either. That’s just not the way we
22   work. We work with people that really want treatment
23   because this is really hard work and we put a lot of
24   caring into it as we are today. And your family, all
     
    67
     
1   four of you, need stability to have treatment and have it
2   mean something for you for the rest of your lives. All
3   of you need that. It doesn’t make any sense that those
4   kinds of things don’t stop, and that you really consider
5   treatment seriously now and consider what’s happening with
6   your family very, very seriously, and that we all sort
7   this out together.
8 BAG: Once you get out of the hospital if I’m still there, will
9   she be allowed to come up there or --
10 JP: Say that again.
11 BAG: Once she gets out of the hospital if I’m still up there,
12   will she be allowed to come up there?
13 JP: That would be up to that treatment team. When we work
14   with the Chicago team, they decide on their unit about
15   their patient and we decide on our unit about our patient
16   and we put our heads together about decisions like that
17   and work that out as the different situations come up.
18 BAG: Would you come up there?
19 LA: If it was possible, yes.
20 BAG: What do you mean possible?
21 LA: If it was okay with your treatment team.
22 BAG: How do I know you just won’t come out here and say, "Well,
23   I’ll go find me another man" or something?
24 LA: I don’t hardly think you have to worry about that.
     
    68
     
1 BAG: Why is that? It’s happened. Women leave for a mess or
2   reasons.
3 JP: Brenda, was there more of a possibility that that would
4   happen if he doesn’t get care?
5 LA: Yeah, I would think so, definitely.
6 JP: Is that somehow related so that if he got help there
7   would be more of a chance that things could work out?
8 LA: Exactly.
9 JP: Oh. Okay. I’m just making sure I’m clear. Did you hear
10   that?
11 LA: I thought I had made myself very loud and very clear on
12   that point.
13 BAG: What makes you so sure you personally, you personally,
14   Brenda personally, so sure that I am involved?
15 RS: Let’s not get back into that --
16 JP: You’re starting over.
17 RS: -- because that’s not gonna help anything right now.
18 BAG: But what if they’re lying and they just think that?
19 CS: Would all three of us lie the same lie as the same time?
20 BAG: Its not the same lie. I’ve heard different stories.
21   Alice hadn’t vouched --
22 RS: They’re all saying that there’s been hurt going on
23   involving you.
24 BAG: Alice, do you have anything of me molesting you?
     
    69
     
1 AB: Not yet.
2 BAG: Any memory?
3 RS: BA, the question here is -- Do you want to be treated?
4 BAG: Yes, definitely if -- I mean, if this is --
5 RS: Good.
6 BAG: I don’t know how much more I’ve got to go through to save
7   my family.
8 JP: We’ve got to save you now. What your wife is saying is
9   that she wants you to get treatment so she doesn’t have an
10   abusive husband.
11 CS: Do you know that there’s a possibility that you could
12   leave this hospital this afternoon after this meeting and
13   maybe -- maybe there’s programming in you that if someone
14   tells you that you’ve done something to them that you’re
15   supposed to go hurt yourself and you could go off the
16   road or something?
17 BAG: There’s a possibility the sky could fall in, too.
18 RS: Do you hear what Carol is saying?
19 BAG: But --
20 CS: ëCause --
21 RS: Do you hear what Carol is saying?
22 BAG: If it’s not your time, it’s not your time.
23 CS: No --
     
    70
     
1 RS: That’s interesting to hear, but did you hear what
2   Carol said?
3 BAG: I heard what she said --
4 RS: Do you know why she said it?
5 BAG: -- but if it’s not your time to go, it’s not your time to
6   go.
7 JP: But --
8 AB: But, dad --
9 RS: What -- what -- what did Carol say?
10 BAG: Just what she said.
11 RS: What did she say?
12 BAG: There’s a possibility if - - if I was programmed that I
13   came in here and left I could go out and drive off the
14   side of the road or something.
15 RS: But she said that she was worried about your safety when
16   you leave here.
17 JP: Because she’s worried about you.
18 BAG: But yet if it’s not your time to go, it’s not your time to
19   go.
20 JP: Do you hear her worry?
21 BAG: I mean, do you believe in God or not?
22 JP: Do you hear her worry? Do you every worry about a loved
23   one?
24 BAG: I hear --
     
    71
     
1 JP: Do you every worry?
2 BAG: -- I don’t know what I hear.
3 JP: Do you every worry about a loved one?
4 BAG: Yes. I worry about these three.
5 JP: Okay.
6 BAG: If they’re ever gonna get out of this place.
7 JP: That’s the kind of thing that in terms of your qualifying
8   for the treatment program in Chicago are not statements
9   that will qualify you. You need to know that because
10   they’re not gonna take, "Well, when are you getting out of
11   this place" or "This is no good" or whatever. They take
12   people that are gonna really engage in treatment.
13 BAG: How are you supposed to live while all four of us are
14   hospitalized? May I ask?
15 JP: I don’t know. What do you think?
16 BAG: I don’t know. I have no idea.
17 RS: We’re back again to the -- what you want to take a chance
18   with.
19 JP: There certainly are lots and lots of risks. It seems to
20   me like the risk of physical and even more abuse of your
21   whole family, that that would be worth anything to fix.
22 BAG: Yeah, it is.
     
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1 JP: And I don’t know what the logistics are about the hospital
2   stay. I mean, if you can’t work it out, then I guess
3   there’s a possibility that you can’t get treatment.
4 BAG: Then what? Because I can’t get treatment she’s gonna
5   leave, just say, "Well, that’s it," Katy bar the door.
6 CS: You were gonna do that to her.
7 BAG: No.
8 CS: You just said whenever you first came in here, "I’ll file
9   for divorce and pull the insurance Monday morning."
10 JP: Uh-huh.
11 BAG: Right. I gave six months in here. That’s more than
12   you’ve given me.
13 CS: And six months is enough to go through --
14 RS: BA --
15 CS: -- 40 something years of abuse.
16 BAG: How much time do you want? Six years?
17 RS: BA, you’re being offered the rest of your life.
18 JP: Uh-huh.
19 BAG: Really? What’s the rest of my life?
20 RS: It’s up to you.
21 BAG: Huh. It could be tomorrow. It could be now. It could
22   be next week. It could be -- so --
23 RS: It’s something to think about.
24 BAG: Huh.
     
    73
     
1 JP: Yeah.
2 BAG: The rest of my life?
3 RS: Uh-huh.
4 JP: Uh-huh.
5 BAG: Huh.
6 CS: You’re not gonna die in one of these places.
7 BAG: Really?
8 CS: No.
9 BAG: You sure?
10 CS: Yeah.
11 BAG: You are?
12 CS: Uh-huh.
13 BAG: You’re positive?
14 CS: Yeah.
15 BAG: You’re not gonna die of a heart attack?
16 RS: Carol’s not.
17 CS: I’m not.
18 BAG: You sure?
19 RS: Uh-huh.
20 CS: I’m taking heart medication.
21 BAG: That’s why you -- that’s why you was on heart medication.
22 RS: And I’d be willing to bet that she’ll no longer need it
23   once she’s finished her treatment.
     
    74
     
1 JP: I’m wondering if you could agree to meet to begin to work
2   out what it is that might be able to qualify you to go to
3   Chicago.
4 BAG: Yeah.
5 JP: And that would include a list of -- I will not?
6 BAG: Yeah. But what’s gonna happen while I’m there and she’s
7   here and --
8 JP: Everybody will be in treatment.
9 BAG: Then what? Once you get out, where are you gonna go?
10 RS: We’re repeating that again.
11 JP: Uh-huh.
12 CS: If you --
13 BAG: That’s something to look to.
14 RS: Part -- part of -- part of discharge planning that Dr.
15   Keraga is very good at is to plan the kinds of things
16   that you’re asking about. That’s not important here.
17   That will be taken care of.
18 BAG: You get all four of us in the hospital and who in the
19   world is gonna take care of anybody? Who is gonna
20   oversee her, her, her and me?
21 RS: At this point each person is taking care of themselves.
22 JP: Uh-huh.
23 RS: Except you.
     
    75
     
1 BAG: Well, that’s - - it sounds easy but it’s not as easy as
2   writing it down and saying, "Wow." That’s like saying,
3   "The Lord is gonna take care of is all. You don’t have so
4   work. You don’t have to go out and do nothing," don’t it?
5 LA: I don’t think that’s quite the way it works.
6 BAG: That’s what you’re saying, though.
7 JP: I’m wondering if you’re able to figure this out about how
8   you can get help yourself because I think you’re very
9   smart and you’re very able to do that.
10 RS: We’re gonna need to wrap this meeting up.
11 JP: Uh-huh. I’m really glad that you’re considering this.
12 BAG: Can I see you after this meeting?
13 LA: No.
14 BAG: Why?
15 LA: Because I choose not to see you.
16 BAG: Can you give me one more bit of proof why you say I am in
17   the cult, something I can look on, look back on,
18   something that I can say, "Yes"?
19 RS: Can you tell him about the electricity in his feet?
20 LA: Why would you be feeling the electricity in your feet --
21 BAG: I don’t know. It’s gone away.
22 LA: - - unless you had been electroshocked?
23 BAG: What does that have to do with it? You could have done
24   it and me not being in the cult. You say you did it
     
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1   while I was in bed. That’s what you said. That was your
2   words.
3 JP: So it would be important to work that out and work out.
4   what happened to your back and work out -- I mean, what
5   else has happened?
6 BAG: I want to see you before I go.
7 LA: I don’t think that’s a good idea.
8 BAG: I do. What guarantee do I have that you’ll even still
9   love me?
10 LA: What guarantee do I have that you will go to Chicago and
11   follow through with what you say you’re going to?
12 BAG: Because I say I would. I said I would last time and I
13   went. I said I would --
14 LA: Well, isn’t my word good enough for you, too?
15 BAG: No, because you never show me your love.
16 LA: But you expect me --
17 BAG: You have not shown me your love in six months. I have.
18   You haven’t.
19 LA: I haven’t shown you my love?
20 BAG: No, you have not.
21 RS: Once again, that’s what this meeting is all about.
22 BAG: In other words, you want to go for ten years -- two years
23   -- a year without making love. Right?
24 RS: Well, that’s not gonna happen here anyway I don’t think
     
    77
     
1 BAG: Well --
2 LA: Really.
3 BAG: Well, you could -- I thought you -- in other words, that
4   was a bunch of bullshit - -
5 JP: It’s not allowed out in the lobby.
6 BAG: -- you trying to get out on my -- for my birthday on a
7   pass?
8 LA: No, that was not bullshit.
9 BAG: That was bullshit then to you. Right?
10 LA: No, it was not.
11 BAG: What was it? Outright lie?
12 LA: No.
13 BAG: What?
14 JP: You know what I think? I think it was a really dumb
15   request.
16 BAG: Why? She was supposed to have been doing well.
17 JP: Am I right?
18 LA: That’s right. You are very right, 100 percent right.
19 BAG: (UI)?
20 JP: Do you know why it was dumb? Because she needs to be
21   really keeping moving forward and not doing things that
22   are gonna set you both back now.
23 BAG: How would getting out on a pass set you back?
     
    78
     
1 JP: Well, it looks like you’ve got some deciding to do and
2   some decisions to make and some lists to make.
3 BAG: If she’ll see me after this meeting, I’ll go, no questions
4   asked. If she don’t, then you wrote it off.
5 JP: If that’s how you value your life.
6 BAG: Is that how she values her love -- her love for me?
7 DA: Sounds pretty conditional to me.
8 BAG: No.
9 JP: Really.
10 BAG: It’s not very conditional.
11 LA: I think --
12 BAG: I think hers --
13 LA: -- I think it is.
14 BAG: -- is conditional.
15 LA: No, I don’t think it is at all.
16 BAG: I think it is because you’re telling me to wait six
17   months. I’m asking for one night.
18 LA: Waste six months?
19 BAG: Yeah, waste six months, that’s clear, away from you.
20 LA: I don’t --
21 AB: But wasn’t coming here and saying what we said today and
22   taking a risk --
23 BAG: You haven’t said nothing.
24 LA: Because you haven’t given her a chance.
     
    79
     
1 BAG: Yes, I did. I asked her and she --
2 AB: Isn’t that enough for you?
3 BAG: You haven’t said nothing. No, it’s not enough for me,
4   Alice. Now, if you want to open your mouth and talk, I’m
5   all ears.
6 JP: We’re not at that spot anymore.
7 BAG: I guess not so you get out of it again. Right? You don’t
8   have to talk. Where is your guts to come out and talk?
9 RS: What does that mean, Brenda?
10 LA: Where’s her guts? Don’t dare say that to that child.
11 BAG: Where is her guts?
12 LA: Don’t say that.
13 BAG: Why?
14 LA: Because you are telling her to shut down.
15 BAG: I am?
16 LA: Yes, you are.
17 BAG: No, I’m not. I’m telling her to talk.
18 LA: Shut up.
19 BAG: Well, where -- come on and talk. What’s the matter? You
20   don’t -- you’re not brave enough?
21 CS: Congratulations.
22 BAG Give me a meeting. Give me some proof.
23   Congratulations.
24   Would you give me some proof?
     
    80
     
1 AB: Unh-unh.
2 BAG: Unh-unh. Okay.
3 LA: I think you’ve got your proof.
4 BAG: I think you’re lying. I think --
5 RS: You need to decide.
6 BAG: I did decide.
7 RS: We need to --
8 BAG: But I think -- I’m asking for one bit of proof from the
9   third member.
10 RS: We need to stop.
11 JP: We’re gonna stop now.
12 RS: It’s time to stop. We’ve been at this for nearly two
13   hours now.
14 BAG: And I think it’s all a bunch of bullshit.
15 CS: And you’re not going?
16 BAG: Why should I?
17 CS: And you’re going to file for divorce and try and pull the
18   insurance?
19 BAG: No, not try. I will.
20 LA: That’s your choice.
21 BAG: That’s my choice. That’s your choice because you won’t see
22   me. If you want to see me, yes, I’ll go.
23 LA: That’s your choice.
24 BAG: No. It’s your choice, baby.
     
    81
     
1 LA: No. It’s your choice.
2 BAG: Unh-unh. I’ll pack your stuff and put it in storage then.
3 LA: Fine.
4 CS: But, mom, it’s your choice to stand your ground so --
5 BAG: Yeah, it sure is.
6 LA: That’s exactly what I’m doing. I’m standing my ground.
7 BAG: Who’s on -- we’ll see how dedicated everybody is when it’s
8   free. Huh?
9 JP: I guess the first thing on your list for Chicago is
10   working on being a bully.
11 BAG: No.
12 JP: Uh-huh. Because you’re a good one. We’re gonna stop now.
13 BAG: I’m just asking for --
14 JP: You’re a big bully.
15 BAG: -- one thing and I can’t get that one thing.
16 RS: So this is -- take Alice back over?
17 SD: No -- um, I’m gonna take you back to the children’s unit.
18 CS: Are you going back to the unit because (UI) .
19 BAG: Huh? Is this adios? I don’t believe you’d do this.
20 DA: Any suggestions?
21 JP: Yeah, that you offer to let him know that he can meet
22   with me and you about what he would have to do. I think
23   it’s real important that he would have to figure out a way
24   to qualify to go, that uh, they don’t just take anybody,
     
    82
     
1   and that’s the truth. And that’s not anything made up.
2   That’s real real.
3 DA: Okay.
4 JP: That right now I wouldn’t treat him.
5 DA: What?
6 JP: That right now I wouldn’t treat him. He can go sit on a
7   curb.
8 DA: This was real overwhelming when I arrived yesterday --
9   two days ago. It took me two days to absorb it.
10 JP: Yeah.
11 DA: Thanks.
12 JP: Okay. You can go out -- I think right there.
13 SD: Did he go that way? Did they lose him this way?
14 JP: He just went out that way. I thought she went with Dr.
15   Keraga. Where is Dr. Keraga?
16 SD: She’s in here.
17 JP: Oh, well, where’s Brenda?
18 DA: Brenda went that way with a different staff.
19 JP: Who is Brenda with?
20 SD: I walked over to Alice. I didn’t --
21 JP: Let’s check this out. Just a minute.
22 DA: Does somebody need to see her?
23 PT: Does anybody else need to see Brenda?
24 JP: We need to figure out -- where she is.
     
    83
     
1 PT: No, she’d go back to the unit. I think she went back.
2 JP: I don’t want her to run into BA.
3 PT: Wasn’t um -- She’s with her one on one being escorted
4   back.
5 UF: Lady, she’s with her one on one being escorted back --
6   they’ve already left the unit. Yeah --
7   (End of Side B)
     
    84
     

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