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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #2, Side B - Date: 11/20/1991

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

JP: Judith Peterson Ph.D

BW: Barbara White

(UI) Unintelligible


Beginning of tape.

     
1 JP: ...(UI)...
2 BW: ...(UI)...
3 JP: What's happening?.
4 BW: I'm trying to and get in touch with all the feelings...
5 JP: Well, what do you need to do? Where did we stop yesterday?
6 BW: ...(UI)... and then uhm, you told me to to try and get in touch with things around....(UT)...
7   uhm...never an...(UI)...feel about, um, about George, about George.
8 JP: What's that? Whoever did this had a lot of feeling. Who's that?
9 BW: Okay, I'm just going to go ahead and start...(UI)...
10 JP: Mm. hm.
11 BW: And she'll come when she's...(UI)...
12 JP: Uh, huh.
13 BW: There is a part of me who knows and feels that...hates me
14 JP: Mm, hm.
15 BW: ...hates what they've done.
16 JP: Uh-huh.
17 BW: Represents... I don't know if it's, it's a, one or if she represents a, a whole system or what?
     
    1
     
1 JP: Uh-huh. Is she your sexual system, you think?
2 BW: ...(UI)... She represents that, that hatred...
3 JP: Uh-huh.
4 BW: ...that feel...
5 JP: Mm, hm.
6 BW: ...of all the times that they've put things in my mouth it wasn't so bad. It wasn't so bad
7   during when they were done because you knew that was what you had to do...and you
8   didn't think about it and you didn't...it was like that was my job.
9 JP: Uh-huh.
10 BW: But afterwards...
11 JP: Let those feelings about having that kind of job and being filmed and things in your
12   mouth...(UI)...
13 BW: It was afterwards. It was afterwards. It was when all...(UI)...they came and...
14 JP: Uh-huh.
15 BW: And then...and then...then there was nobody and they just...everybody...whoever
16   wanted...it was like, okay now we get to have ours.
17 JP: Uh-huh. They could do whatever they wanted.
18 BW: (Crying) It was like they were...they didn't know him...and...
19 JP: ...(UI)...
20 BW: Just stuck it in and stuck it in, and they would hold my...(UI)...No! No No! No No.! No
21   ...1 don't! And they would hold my hand and they would hold my nose, and they would
     
    2
     
2   say, "Suck it! Suck it! Suck it!" Nooooooo!
2   (Screaming)
3 JP: Uh-huh...uh-huh.
4 BW: (Crying)
5 JP: ...(UI)...get on the floor.
6   (unintelligible background noise)
7 JP: I know that. Okay. What happened? Go on.
8   (unintelligible background noise)
9 BW: And I swore, I swore, I, I didn't say anything out loud but I thought you...(UI)...some
10   day...some day. If you bite it...do you know that they do if you bite it?
11 JP: What happens if you bite it?
12 BW: They turn you over and they stick...they stick it up...and that's worse.
13 JP: Uh-huh...uh-huh.
14 BW: And then sometime they put it back in your mouth.
15 JP: Let all the feelings out about that. All the feelings out about that.
16 BW: ...(UI)...it's okay...I...I don't want...
17 JP: All the feelings out. Can Stella be all the way here and the parts who represent all...(UI)
18   come out...and come all the way out...and come all the way out...
19 BW: Uh, you don't know how it is to have your legs spread apart and you can't pull 'em up...
20   and you can't pull 'em up...you can't close up...youĂ­re just like everybody...I'm not going
21   to, I, you can't make me. I'm not going to.
     
    3
     
1 JP: Does everybody know that these are feelings about being in a cult? That is what it is
2   all about, what you're all going back to...(Screaming)...Mm, hm.
3 BW: No! No! No!
4   (Screaming)
5 JP: Mm, hm. What you're all going back to.
6 BW: Noooo!
7 JP: Everybody's having feelings.
8 BW: No, I'm not going to...
9 JP: All the way, all the way through the system. All the way there.
10 BW: No!
11 JP: All the way through the system... All the way through the system... All the way through
12   the system...All the way through the system. All those feelings.
13 BW: ...(UI)...
14 JP: Feel those feelings...all the way through, so that all the parts that know what it feels like
15   to be used.
16 BW: Ah, ma...(UI)...wanna get it out of my mouth. I wanna get it out of my mouth! Ahhh.
17   No! No! No! No!
18   (Screaming)
19 JP: Let everyone know that that's what happens in the cult. Everyone know that that's what
20   happens in the cult.
21 BW: ...(UI)...All the pain...(UI)...
     
    4
     
1 JP: And you can feel, you're feeling now. You can tolerate it. It doesn't feel good. What
2   can you feel about George?
3 BW: No...
4 JP: Yes. Uh-huh...
5 BW: ...(UI)...
6 JP: uh-huh.
7 BW: All I know is that...
8 JP: Let the sexual parts feel about George.
9 BW: I feel about...if it wasn't George it really didn't matter. With George...I knew it was George...but
10   didn't matter that it was George because....uhh...it was that, that whole thing about you do
11   treat me like an animal and you treat me just like scum and, and, uhm...then I won't...and
12   I will show you how it feels...and any...you were just born a male and you know males.
13 JP: ...(UI)...
14 BW: You know males are just animals. And you know that all they want to do...
15 JP: Feel the feelings. Feel the feelings.
16 BW: ...is screw you and I'm gonna teach you that you're...you're little enough that I can do it
17   to you and you...I...No...
18 JP: Yeah...and so he's little enough that you all are gonna teach him about what you know and
19   how much you were hurt.
20 BW: But you...that's not...you don't understand how I hated it. You don't understand how I
21   hated it.
     
    5
     
1 JP: You hated it so much. You hated it so much...and then the cult made you do it to George.
2   Mm, hm. Let out the feelings about that reality.
3 BW: It's like...it's like the feelings are coming up from the inside...
4 JP: Uh, huh.
5 BW: ...and then they're coming...
6 JP: Uh-huh.
7 BW: ...out from outside. And they're like ready to...
8 JP: uh-huh...uh-huh...go ahead...Uh-huh...uh-huh...
9 BW: I'm not going to do it! I'm not...you...!
10   (Screaming and crying)
11 BW: No! No! That's my child!
12 JP: Uh-huh...
13 BW: No...No...No...
14 JP: Uh-huh.
15 BW: No, nobody deserves this...
16 JP: Come together with the knowledge.
17 BW: My baby...my baby...
18 JP: ...(UI)...your own barriers...
19   (Crying)
20 BW: My baby...my baby. This is insane. This is a child...(UI)...
21 JP: Barbara's child.
     
    6
     
1 BW: This is the baby that, that I, I rocked...
2 JP: Uh, huh.
3 BW: It was like...
4   (Unintelligible conversation due to individuals speaking in a very low tone)
5 BW: This is the baby...
6 JP: The feelings about what happened...(UI)...
7 BW: I can't. I can't believe...
8 JP: Let those feelings come on out...(UI)...let it out...(UI)...let it all out...(UI)...
9 BW: Please don't. How could this happen? How could this be? How could it be? My own
10   body, my own flesh and blood?
11 JP: Let them come together.
12 BW: I did this to my own... my own flesh and blood...
13 JP: Let them come together.
14 BW: The thing that is.. George is the most...
15 JP: Let them come together.
16 BW: George is the most important thing in my very life..
17 JP: And so the parts that want to...
18 BW: ...and to know that...
19 JP: ...act out how angry they are about what happened sexually. That's what they need to
20   deal with then.
21 BW: Why?
     
    7
     
1 JP: Because it hurt the most.
2 BW: Why...why?
3 JP: Because it's what they need to do.
4   (Screaming and crying)
5 JP: Yeah. Yeah.
6 BW: I want to go...
7 JP: ...(UI)...
8 BW: I want to tell George I love him and I...
9 JP: ...Tell him my Rye...that's why it had to be that way, because the pain is so great. Yeah...
10 BW: ...and the more...
11 JP: Yeah, and the more you did it to him...
12 BW: ...the more it hurt me.
13 JP: Yeah. Yeah. (UI)...cult member...(UI)...say out loud to me...(UI)...Not lose it. Not lose
14   it. Look at me. Look at me...(UI)...Tell me. Tell me what you all know...(UI)...
15 BW: It's not...I didn't put it in my mouth cause I wouldn't do that. I, even...
16 JP: No.
17 BW: ...that was...
18 JP: Stella...
19 BW: ...no...
20 JP: Stella...
21 BW: ...even Stella wouldn't because that 's, that's beneath her.
     
    8
     
1 JP: Stella...
2 BW: She would never put anything in her mouth. That's not..
3 JP: Whoever did that bring up the feelings that....
4 BW: That's...
5 JP: ...bring up the feelings...
6 BW: I'm not that way.
7 JP: ...(UI)...know, bring up the body memories. Bring up the memories. All together.
8   Because when you're in denial, there is no hope. In denial there is no hope for recovery.
9 BW: But you don't understand...
10 JP: In denial there is no hope for recovery!
11 BW: I'm going to tell you...
12 JP: In denial...no hope. No recovery.
13 BW: I didn't suck his penis. I didn't...they made me do something worse.
15 BW: ...I didn't...
16 JP: Of course...want everyone to know there's no hope...(UI)...understanding...(UI)...and the
17   parts that know come out and be here and stay here. And the ones that don't wanna come
18   out and talk to this bitch, come on out here! Come on out here!
19 BW: It's okay.
20 JP: Uh-huh, I'm right here....and I'm as strong as you are. And you're out of excuses.
21 BW: You don't understand.
     
    9
     
1 JP: You start recovering or...oh, you bet I do!
2 BW: Listen to me....Now you shut up and you listen to me for a minute!
3 JP: Go ahead, tell me.
4 BW: You don't understand how it is to have your legs tied down, and your mouth tied down
5   and your, your arms, and your, and your wrists and everything, and then have...and have
6   somebody pour...
7 JP: Pour what? Go ahead....tell me...
8 BW: Maple sugar all over you and let the dogs lick you...lick you...lick you...lick you...and
9   they...
10 JP: Say it all.
11 BW: And they just...
12 JP: Say it all. Say it all.
13 BW: You don't understand
14 JP: I do.
15 BW: You don't!
16 JP: I do.
17 BW: You just...you can't understand because you'll never have it happen to you!
18 JP: That's right.
19 BW: And then you...
20 JP: That's right...but I want to work it out with you. I want to listen to all of it. Tell me how
21   horrible it is. All of it. Listen to all of it.
     
    10
     
1   (Background - telephone rings)
2 JP: To all of how horrible it is.
3 BW: No phone.
4 JP: There is no one.
5 BW: Mommy...
6 JP: No, I'm right here...look at me. I'm right here when you...(UI)...I've been saying that all
7   along.
8 BW: But, but...
9 JP: I'm right here with you.
10 BW: I didn't...I...whatever I did to George...I did it because I wanted to make him the best.
11 JP: The best at what?
12 NIS: The best at whatever he had to be.
13 JP: ...(UI)...
14 BW: Do you now what happens to people that come in second?
15 JP: Yeah.
16 BW: Do you know what happens to people that come in second?
17 JP: What happens?
18 BW: They're dead.
19 JP: That's right.
20 BW: And I love my son and you may not...and you may think I'm the most horrible person in
21   the world.
     
    11
     
1 JP: You had to make him best, didn't you? The best in everything. So sometimes that's best
2   cock sucker, isn't it?
3 BW: No...
4 JP: Yes. Yeah. Isn't it? Best with a knife. Best in stimulating a woman. Best with his
5   tongue.
6 BW: Everything...
7 JP: Yeah.
8 BW: I'm sure.
9 JP: Yeah.
10 BW: I'm not saying...I don't remember it. I'm not saying...
11 JP: Of course not! We wouldn't want to remember and work on it.
12 BW: I don't remember it now. I'm not saying I won't remember. I don't remember all those
13   things now. But I'm willing to acknowledge that, that you can, if you can imagine, you
14   can....I probably did it.
15 JP: Can you imagine?
16 BW: I...
17 JP: What's it mean to be best in the cult?
18 BW: It means you...(UI)...
19 JP: Start using more words. I do.
20 BW: It mean that you're not normal.
21 JP: What does it mean? Real words.
     
    12
     
1 BW: ...(UI)...
2 JP: What's it mean for a 10-year-old to be the best in the cult?
3 BW: Mmm...
4 JP: You tell me.
5 BW: It means that George...
6 JP: Look at me...
7 BW: ...is expected to do...
8 JP: Don't use bullshit words with me! Tell me! Don't clean it up...all pretty language. I don't
9   want to hear it. What does it really mean to be best in the cult at age 10?
10 BW: It means that...it means that...you...(UI)...
11 JP: What's it mean?
12 BW: It means that you're, however they can use you...they can use you with animals...
13 JP: Use you how? Go on. Go on.
14 BW: ...And they can use you with animals...it means...it means...
15 JP: Uh-huh...
16 BW: ...sucking...
17 JP: Uh-huh...means what?
18 BW: It means stimulating the animal...
19 JP: Uh-huh.
20 BW: And it...it means...
21 JP: Stimulating the animal means sucking on the dog. And licking the dogs' penis. Is that
     
    13
     
1   right? Let's talk about what it is that I hear from people about what children that age do in
2   the cult. They're trained by monkeys by then, aren't they? Come on. Let's use real
3   words with each other.
4 BW: ...(UI)...and he couldn't do that and he turned, and he, then he just shrugged. And that's
5   a sign of weakness and that only makes it worse. The weak ones get it the worst. The
6   more, the weaker you are...
7 JP: And you were the good cult mother and made him the best. And I understand that. And
8   I understand that he's stuck in the system. But that was what was happening, and that was
9   reality.
10   (End of tape)
     
    14
     

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