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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #79, Side B - Date: 6/19/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

JP: Judith Peterson, Ph.D.

BW: Barbara White

RS: Richard Seward, M.D.

SD: Sylvia Davis

JS: Dick White

UF: Unknown Female

UI: Unintelligible


1   (Beginning of Side B of tape)
2 JP: ...(UI)...wanna die... sort of like Dick and George don’t
3   wanna die. And then we really are going to keep
4   ourself safe so we can help people who want to be
5   helped.
6 BW: How can I? How can I come out? My job is to kill you.
7   If I don’t kill you, they’ll kill me.
8 JP: But, they’re not here to kill you.
9 BW: They will be. Some day they will be.
10 JP: That’s where the safety plan comes in. That’s why a
11   safety plan must be devised. A safety plan includes
12   you... Does everybody hear? You see one of the tapes,
13   Dick, that you need to know goes on, and on, and on, and
14   on... one of the tapes that she kind of convinced some
15   people about in this hospital before is that, "Well
16   really, this lady is only in treatment for her son and
     
    1
     
1   her husband not for herself and nothing is being done
2   for Barbara?"
3 BW: That’s not true.
4 JP: That isn’t true, but that’s a tape that we heard over
5   and over, and over again for months and the truth is,
6   just like Dick said when he came down here... he is here
7   right now to say... we all as a family need a safety
8   plan. The only one not participating in the safety
9   plan so far is you. Because it’s only the deeper
10   parts, the cult experts, that can help Barbara and George
11   and Dick with a safety plan. It’s only you guys down
12   deep that can do that.
13   RS: The ones down deep that are still listening.
14 JP: Yeah. The ones down deep that don’t like it that I cut
15   off everything. The communication, you bet I did.
16   The ones that probably will need that for a long time
17   in the future. That’s probably one of the things that
18   Dick will need to know is how to cut off communication.
19   And only have certain communication. But, that is
20   important. I didn’t learn that from you. You guys
21   haven’t told me, but other patients have. Now, Bobbi
22   and I will both share those kinds of things about what
23   other patients have told us. We will share that with
     
    2
     
1   all of you, but it’s not coming from you. That’s real
2   sad.
3 BW: Right now the only way that George and Dick can be kept
4   safe...
5 JP: One hour.
6 BW: From me is to keep me away from ëem until I work
7   through the automatic behavior.
8 JP: That’s very true and there is no thought that any of us
9   on this treatment team have of allowing you to be near
10   Dick and George.
11   RS: But we already figured that out.
12   JP: We knew that along time ago. The issue is that right
13   now that the leaders need to be out. (UI) so what
14   happened to Dick so did he... he didn’t know... that you
15   had made him as cult active as you could possibly make.
16 BW: (sobs) the programming... but see you know this.
17 SD: Then don’t say it. Please, spare us.
18 RS: Step aside.
19 BW: George has already killed by himself.
20 JP: Please.
21 BW: That’s how far he’s gotten.
22 JP: That’s an insult to my intelligence. I want everyone
23   all the way down to the toes to hear me. That’s in, ah
24   cult workshop 101 that I took five years ago.
     
    3
     
1   Please, spare me. I’d rather you stay silent. Her
2   resistance is unbelievable. You’re voting.
3 BW: Iím...(UI)...
4 JP: You’re voting... for the cult.
5 SD: It’s so laughable. It really is so laughable in a way.
6   It’s like a kid who learns Pig Latin and thinks
7   therapists don’t know Pig Latin and... and dozens and
8   hundreds of kids have already talked it but still just
9   holding on to it like some, you know, precious piece.
10   It’s already known. Hold on for dear life to your
11   little Pig Latin down there.
12 JP: Uh-huh.
13 SD: It has to be that simple cause that’s when you learned
14   it, as a kid.
15 JP: And see, they’re trying to save this philosophical
16   roots, Sylvia.
17 SD: They’re trying to say what?
18 JP: Save the philosophical roots, that they don’t think
19   that we know that part, that they still want to hang
20   onto the idea that therapists think, and some
21   therapists do still think that cults are... are really
22   sacrificing and killing at certain ages and being
23   married to Satan...
24 SD: ...(UI)...
     
    4
     
1 JP: And all that junk.
2 SD: Uh-huh...
3 JP: Uh-huh, and we don’t deal with that here. You know we
4   just bypass it. We have patients that want to work,
5   and we get them with the philosophical roots of that.
6   And that’s immediately was avail... what was available
7   when I saw George...(UI)... philosophical roots of what
8   has happen to him. We didn’t deal with whether or not
9   he killed whatever at whatever age... it’s ah... it’s
10   not relevant. It’s just a camouflage. It’s a cover
11   up.
12 BW: But, that’s what I know...
13 JP: It’s window dressing. That’s what you know, but the
14   ones in the toes know something very different. They
15   know that’s information that we’re working with Bobbie
16   and others about George and Dick. We already know that
17   stuff and we’re working around it... (UI) folks... you
18   come out, with you know, George has killed... I’m sorry.
19   Is that ancient history for you, Dick?
20 JS: Uh-huh...
21 JP: Philosophical roots. The roots of the tree, and down
22   below the roots.
23 BW: The power and control.. where there always were in sex
24   and drugs.
     
    5
     
1 JP: Cult 101.
2 BW: I’m sorry I
3 JP: I am, too.
4 BW: I’m not resisting.
5 JP: Yes, you are.
6 BW: I’m trying to tell you what I know.
7 RS: Step aside.
8 JP: I don’t want to know what you know. We’ve dealt with
9   that when you came here. You decided you were a cult
10   victim and this was the kind of stuff that came out
11   really soon.
12 BW: Please help me.
13 SD: Who are you praying to, by the way? Who’s praying to
14   who in there?
15 BW: The only one that can... that
16 JP: Who’s that?
17 BW: Really give me the information I need:
18 RS: Who?
19 BW: You’re gonna laugh. You’re gonna say, "Oh, now that’s
20   real mockery."
21 JP: ...(UI)...
22 BW: God.
23 JP: Well, I’m glad you finally brought God out. Pretty
24   important... pretty important part.
     
    6
     
1 BW: He’s the only one that’s gonna save...(UI)...
2 JP: Okay how come he can’t come out? We talked to God this
3   morning with someone else.
4 BW: But, he’s not a part of me.
5 RS: No, he’s down here.
6 JP: (On telephone) Joan, uhm... can I get some...
7 RS: It’s below the barrier.
8 JP: ...cheese or crackers or something. I’m going into a
9   nice sugar low. Thank you.
10 RS: How about God, if he really is God, coming out and
11   talking to us.
12 BW: I don’t mean that God. I mean the God that’s...
13 JP: That’s the one we want to talk to.
14 BW: There isn’t... I told you yesterday there was a person
15   in me who thought... who thought when we first got...
16 JP: Let’s start blaming me.
17 BW: When we first got into treatment we thought that they
18   had the power... that because of all the...
19 JP: Where is God?
20 BW: The...
21 JP: Where is God?
22 RS: Can I talk to God?
23 BW: Because of all the...
24 JP: Where is God?
     
    7
     
1 RS: Down here? Down here? Is God in the toes?
2 BW: WOULD YOU STOP IT!
3 RS: Is that where God is, in the toes?
4 JP: Where is God?
5 RS: Down here?
6 SD: You sounded a little offended there.
7 JP: Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit must not be doing
8   their job.
9 RS: Is God down here?
10 BW: DON’T TOUCH ME!
11 RS: God’s don’t get touched?
12 JP: That means that then they’re aware of their body, Dr.
13   Seward.
14 RS: God’s don’t get touched... that are in the body?
15 BW: I have special... I have special powers.
16 JP: Tell me about them.
17 BW: I... I’m special, I’m strong...
18 JP: Uh-huh... Do you have a body?
19 RS: Down here?
20 JP: Do you have a body?
21 BW: No.
22 JP: You’re outside of a body?
23 BW: I can go away I don’t need this... this... body... I
24   hate this body.
     
    8
     
1 RS: Then why can’t... well, then why didn’t you want me to
2   touch me down here?
3 BW: Because...(sobs)... STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!
4 JP: What does that mean when he touches the foot?
5 BW: It means I can feel it.
6 JP: Okay, could not touch for a second, Dr. Seward? Is it
7   important for you to believe that you don’t have a
8   body?
9 BW: Yes.
10 JP: Tell me about that.
11 BW: If we have a body then we’re limited. We’re not
12   supposed to be limited.
13 JP: In your unlimited power, what do you know?
14 BW: We know that we can get anybody to do anything we want
15   to, just by knowing that we can’t get it done.... all
16   we have to do is find somebody...
17 JP: Uh-huh...
18 BW: Who is more powerful and nobody, were unhappy to have
19   us...
20 JP: ...more powerful in the system? Uh-huh... so you know
21   the system?
22 BW: And to have us bring in somebody.
     
    9
     
1 JP: Is that right? Is that right? That you know the system?
2   Can God come in here and talk to me? Are you powerful
3   enough to stay here?
4 BW: Yes.
5 JP: Are you? Are you?
6 BW: Don’t touch me.
7 JP: I’m not gonna touch you, and I asked Dr. Seward not to
8   touch you. It’s real important for you to keep your
9   identity, isn’t it?
10 BW: We have to think we’re important.
11 JP: Of course.
12 BW: We have to be important.
13 JP: Of course. Of course... and do you know the system?
14 BW: My system.
15 JP: The system. All of the systems.
16 BW: I know...
17 JP: Are you powerful enough to do that even, to know all of
18   that? Are you all knowing? God the Father, the Son...
19 BW: The action part... the spirit is... is the movement,
20   the energy...
21 JP: ...(UI)...
22 BW: And the Father is...
23 JP: Is that right?
24 BW: Knowing...
     
    10
     
1 JP: Is that right? And the Father is knowing...
2 BW: The hidden knowledge.
3 JP: Yes...listening (UI)...
4 BW: And it’s not hidden anymore.
5 JP: It is hidden in you... specifically, and everyone’s
6   programming has a nuance .. everyone’s (UI)... nuances
7   and differences.. are you gonna touch her.
8 BW: I...
9 JP: You know I know you, don’t you? Can you tell what I’m
10   saying?
11 BW: There’s so much going on in my head about...
12 JP: What’s going on in your head? Stay right here with me.
13   Can you stay right here with me?
14 BW: I learned what... what it will...
15 JP: You have a lot of knowledge, don’t you? A lot of inner
16   knowledge?
17 BW: About my family, only about the people I was involved
18   with.
19 JP: Like Dick and George?
20 BW: I’ve told you.
21 JP: No, you haven’t.
22 BW: Part of the body we would kill for what we... that’s a
23   part of me in the cult that, that... that’s our
24   protection.
     
    11
     
1 JP: Yes.
2 BW: Is they give me ... (Ul)... your doing ...you’re
3   disturbing in a way so that the feelings come down...
4 JP: Uh-huh.
5 BW: And we realize how we’ve destroyed.
6 JP: But God, is God here? God the Father? Can you stay
7   here?
8 BW: Yes.
9 JP: And I give you my word that no one is touching you.
10 BW: Yes.
11 JP: And honoring that... that you need to keep that. Is
12   that important?
13 BW: No one touches him.
14 JP: No one touches God and him. Can you tell me about
15   that?
16 BW: I don’t know where he is.
17 JP: Huh.
18 BW: I don’t know where he is in the process, but if you
19   touch God in George and he is able to he will... he will
20   kill you because no... if you have the...(UI)...
21 JP: Does that mean that when you were asking Dr. Seward to
22   stop touching your foot it was because you would then
23   have to kill him, if he kept it up?
24 BW: If I...
     
    12
     
1 JP: Huh...
2 BW: It makes... makes us realize that we don’t have any
3   power... that we’re just human.
4 JP: And does God the Father... that floats inside... does
5   he know?
6 BW: Does he know now?
7 JP: Does he know what’s been happening in the system? He’s
8   been watching with the other Gods. So you know about
9   that. Huh?
10 BW: Have to take out.
11 JP: Have to take out.
12 BW: That part...
13 JP: What part?
14 BW: The soul part...
15 JP: The soul?
16 BW: You have to break their spirit.
17 JP: Uh-huh.
18 BW: And they were never able to break Dick’s spirit...
19 JP: Uh-huh...
20 BW: I don’t know how.
21 JP: Can you stay here with me?
22 BW: It’s so hard because there’s parts of me that... that
23   say I hope they...
24 JP: Yeah.
     
    13
     
1 BW: There is a part of me that say... that say...
2 JP: That say’s what?
3 BW: They broke George’s spirit and you’ll never get it back.
4   He... he’s committed.
5 JP: Who says that? What part?
6 BW: The God part... the God part that... that there’s in
7   George, that says...
8 JP: There is two parts to the God part. Is that right?
9 BW: There’s really three.
10 JP: There’s three parts. What are those three parts?
11 BW: The knowledge...
12 JP: The knowledge...
13 BW: The action...
14 JP: The action...
15 BW: And the movement or the power...
16 JP: And the movement or power. And in you? Is it the
17   same, and in Dick?
18 BW: ...doesn’t have those parts.
19 JP: Dick doesn’t have those parts.
20 BW: Because... (UI)...
21 JP: Does he have parts of those parts?
22 BW: ...(UI)...
23 JP: He have parts of those parts?
24 BW: He has... everybody has parts of those parts.
     
    14
     
1 JP: No. Not everybody has parts of those parts. What does
2   Dick have?
3 BW: He has the action in the parts.
4 JP: What happens when you look at my hands?
5 BW: They’re praying, don’t pray.
6 JP: What do the hands mean, the praying hands?
7 BW: It’s mockery...
8 JP: Mockery. What does it mean?
9 BW: It means that there is someone higher.
10 JP: What parts of those parts might Dick have?
11 BW: Everybody... I have...(UI)...
12 JP: That somebody...
13 BW: Sometimes we believe that there is parts in us that...
14   the cult...
15 JP: That the cult what?
16 BW: The cult hasn’t gotten to.
17 JP: The cult hasn’t gotten to? Thank you very much. That
18   the cult hasn’t gotten to? Huh...
19 BW: We have to... oh, God... I hate being this way. I hate
20   it when...
21 JP: So God hides behind Barbara? Think about it.
22 BW: There’s a part... there’s a part that says we are
23   powerful and if you just let us go on and... and don’t
     
    15
     
1   restrain us and don’t keep us confined, we can do
2   whatever we want... and then...
3 JP: What parts did you try to put in jail? Anybody willing
4   to talk about it?
5 BW: The action and the power...
6 RS: Tried to break Dick’s spirit.
7 BW: I didn’t ...(sobbing)...
8 JP: How is not related to shock down his legs... the
9   action.
10 BW: The shock was to make him forget the torture or trick
11   him when he... it was belittling, end up making you
12   feel like nothing, degrading him, the cutting down...
13   the (UI) relationship between Dick and George.
14 JP: I want to ask the fingers if there is other action
15   parts you’re not talking about.
16 BW: The parts that humiliated him.
17 JP: Are there other action parts?
18 BW: They even... the breeder.
19 JP: Are there parts that know how to access the shock in
20   his life’s ...(UI)...
21 BW: Enough strength in this body to get him where I need
22   him to be so that other people who are more powerful
23   than this body...
     
    16
     
1 JP: What words do you use to get him to where you want him
2   to be?
3 BW: We don’t use words.
4 JP: What do you use?
5 BW: Touch.
6 JP: Then where do you touch?
7 BW: .. places for different things, but usually with that
8   kind of thing to get him to come with me without having
9   to electroshock him or trance him, but make him kinda
10   just go away... it’s in his elbow... like I hold his
11   elbow.
12 JP: But there are different parts besides his elbow?
13 BW: There is confusion.
14 JP: Uh-huh.
15 BW: Different body positions. My body positions.
16 JP: Because somebody did something yesterday that put him
17   in a trance and made shock go down his legs.
18 BW: ... me. You told me things that...
19 JP: Things that what?
20 BW: How can that go on?
21 JP: How can what go wrong?
22 BW: How could that have happened without me knowing it?
23 JP: Oh... What do you think of that?
24 BW: ...demand.
     
    17
     
1 JP: Yeah you were all powerful, supposed to know the whole
2   system. So you were tricked inside.
3 BW: No.
4 JP: Well, I’m asking, and I didn’t know you don’t know.
5   Who knows?
6 BW: We didn’t...
7 JP: Of course, I hate to break it to you, but you’re not at
8   the bottom of the system. Did you know that? You’re
9   not at the bottom of any system. We’re about... I
10   think a half to three-quarters down. Did you know
11   that?
12 BW: I don’t know what’s below.
13 JP: I think that’s true.
14 BW: I don’t know if it’s ever gonna end.
15 JP: It might not. Who know’s about triggering Dick?
16 BW: I know about touch, but I don’t know if I can trigger
17   him without...
18 JP: Good.
19 BW: Me even knowing it then...(UI)...
20 JP: But we did, but who knows? Who knows?
21   (Background noise - popping/squeaking noise)
22 BW: Oh God dammit Whenever I think I’ve reached the bottom
23   I just find out it’s more bullshit. When will it ever
24   stop? I really thought that I had reached the bottom,
     
    18
     
1   and now I don’t know if there is a bottom. You keep
2   saying, "Who knows?" I don’t know who knows who
3   triggered George, who triggered Dick.
4 JP: Can you ask [ed] inside?
5 BW: An angry part... a part that really want[s]...
6 JP: Where is the part?
7 BW: Where is the part?
8 JP: Can it come out?
9 BW: ...(UI)... You’re gonna say, "Are we still gonna go on
10   with that ...(UI)... Dick and then he wouldn’t...
11 JP: No, I want to talk to the parts that’s angry, that
12   triggered him. I’d like to know how that happens? Are
13   you proud enough about it to be able to explain it? Or
14   are you just a robot? (UI) that you’re either a robot
15   and you do it automatically, or you’re not robot, and
16   you can explain it. Which are you?
17 BW: I didn’t do it on purpose. I didn’t intentionally
18   ...(UI)...
19 JP: Where is the part that did it? The part that’s
20   resentful of Dick. Where is that part? The courage to
21   come out again? He’s gonna leave soon. He’s gonna
22   leave.
     
    19
     
1 BW: (sobbing/screaming) I would... he comes and... he comes
2   down for one day... I’ve been working. You know, you
3   forget that I have been working too.
4 JP: I don’t forget. Did you forget that he is working too.
5 BW: No... I... I think about how hard it must be for him to
6   get up every morning and go to work and how there are
7   days I can’t... I don’t want to get out of bed and I
8   think...(UI)...
9 JP: ...(UI)... I’ll bet there are day[s] that he doesn’t want
10   to get out bed equally.
11 BW: I know he’s working hard. But nobody recognizes that
12   I’m working hard.
13 JP: Poor victim... poor victim. Where’s the part that’s so
14   resentful of him, you want to trigger him? Where are
15   you? Can you come out? Are you a robot? Can you
16   explain what you did? Huh...
17 BW: Yes. Turning my body and crossing my leg.
18 JP: Who does that?
19 BW: The parts that... that hates Dick for... for always
20   being the one that everybody goes to and likes, and I’m
21   the one everybody hates. Everybody thinks Dick’s
22   perfect.
23 JP: Who are you?
24 BW: I’m the jealous part. I’m jealous of every...
     
    20
     
1 JP: Then maybe you better talk to God about your name
2   because I really think that there’s more information.
3 RS: Do you live in the knee?
4 BW: No, I live in the gut.
5 JP: In the cut?
6 BW: In the gut.
7 JP: In the gut.
8 BW: Where the emotions come.
9 JP: Uh-huh. I’ve met parts in George that live in the gut.
10   I met lots of parts in the knees, though. Ah, just
11   about out of time because of course we need to process
12   with Dick any triggering that folks have done with what
13   they’ve said or done or anything today. Since Dick’s
14   working on that. I, ah... know you that you shared
15   with me yesterday, Dick, that you could come back...
16 JS: Uh-huh...
17 JP: And I’m wondering what you would like to find when you
18   come...
19 JS: I’d like to find uh, the person that peeked their head
20   out a couple of times today. I’d like to find that
21   that person come out and entered therapy... and has
22   agreed to look for other options on how they... other
23   than being a killer, maybe they can find something else
24   to do. They realize that they’ve got to take care of
     
    21
     
1   themself, but that they are also willing to come out
2   and share information about me and George, as well as
3   Barbara and the system inside. Because if they do that...
4   then we can start putting a safety plan together.
5 JP: Because right now it really depends upon what you learn
6   from therapists. That’s helpful, but...
7 JS: Uh-huh. Right. But that part has to come out. That
8   part holds all the knowledge that would be real
9   important in putting a safety plan together.
10 RS: .. the knowledge (UI)...
11 JS: And I realize that part has some issues that it has to
12   deal with, too, some anger and some resentment and all
13   that... and that’s... I, I support them working out
14   that anger and that resentment cause I... I think they
15   saw my anger and resentment come out yesterday, and
16   that’s part of the therapeutic process. So that I...
17   I just, I support that, uhm... but I also want them to
18   know that it’s a hell of a lot safer in here to deal
19   with trained people than it is out there by killing
20   little babies and trying to get your little boy and
21   your husband to... to do those things.
22 BW: But what you’re not hearing is I don’t want to do that
23   anymore.
     
    22
     
1 JS: Ah, if you haven’t come out and worked in therapy then
2   you still want to do it. The only way you can not want
3   to do it anymore is to have already come out and worked
4   in therapy, now I, I... the one that just stepped in
5   front of that person, I hear ya, and I know you don’t
6   want to do it anymore, but the one behind you has to
7   deal with that.
8 JP: The one that’s talking with the toes.
9 JS: Left toes. I see you down there.
10 SD: Right toes, too. (UI).
11 JS: Uh-huh.
12 SD: ...(UI)...
13 JP: They’re really, uhm... acknowledging what you’re
14   saying, Dick.
15 JS: Uh-huh.
16 JP: And maybe they’re ready to join in therapy.
17   (Unintelligible background conversation - individuals
18   speaking in a low tone)
19   (UI) God has left...
20 JS: That’s what I’d like to come back down here and find
21   out.
22 JP: Uh-huh. Do you know when you’ll be able to come back?
23 JS: I’ll be able to come about the third week of July.
     
    23
     
1 JP: Okay. We’ll sort that out. I wanted to, uhm... go
2   down to... is that room free? Okay Sylvia, why don’t
3   you and I go down and talk to Dick?
4 SD: Okay. If you have another lady stay here though, cause
5   after I do that I need to, ah visit the facilities.
6 RS: You want us to send somebody down ...(UI)...
7 UF: Uh... I can stay ...(UI)...
8   (End of Side B of tape)
     
    24
     

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