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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions

Tape #328, Side B - Date: 5/20/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

JP: Judith A. Peterson, Ph.D.

AB: Alice Brown

SD: Sylvia Davis

IA: Inaudible

1 JP: Are you okay in here with this?
2 SD: Uh, huh.
3 JP: I’ll tell her where you are.
4 SD: Yeah. We’re, we’re fine. You had a terrible time. Come
5   here. (Alice is crying.) (IA) brought ’em this time.
6   Sorry you couldn’t take permission even to let a tear out
7   until your mother was out of the room. Must be kind of a
8   relief for her to walk out so that you can have your
9   feelings. Aside from just terror. You were sitting there
10   in the session just shaking. (Alice continues to weep.) It
1l   was so awful to see Carol being so courageous and so open
12   and so honest, and not even getting mad, and asking Mom
13   for help. And all the pictures of scary, scary, scary
14   stuff, and you might know some of that scary stuff, too,
15   parts of you, yeah. And seen Mom glaring, glaring. But you
16   notice that she didn’t get physically hurt in here. And
17   Carol didn’t. She was working for the children, wasn’t
18   she? Yeah. She was working for you, too, to open up and to
19   risk. Some of those pictures that were laid out were like
1   the kind of things you’re doing in your journal, aren’t
2   they? Yeah. And she was just laid them right out there.
3 AB: It’s all gone.
4 SD: What’s all gone?
5 AB: All the hope of a new family.
6 SD: All the hope of a new family, with Mom as part of it, huh?
7   All the hope of Mom coming around. Mom is not safe. - Mom is
8   not safe. (Alice weeps louder.) She has never been safe.
9   At this time it doesn’t look like she will be safe. But you
10   can be safe. But you can be safe. (IA) can be safe. And
11   today I have some hope for Carol. Today I have some
12   hope for Carol.
13 AB: I told the staff I was so scared...-
14 SD: Mm, hm.
15 AB: ...of this session.
16 SD: Mm, hm.
17 AB: And I prayed that it would be better than Friday.
18 SD: Mm, hm.
19 AB: And it was so much worse.
20 SD: It was worse so far as Mom is concerned, but it was lots
21   better so far as Carol is concerned. Carol and some
22   of her parts inside that can’t talk yet, but they found the
23   pictures. They found them and they laid them out. And I
24   believe that there’s hope for your sister. I believe that
25   there’s hope for you as a grown-up having a sister that’s
1   your friend and that is safe. I see that possibility now.
2   I know it’s so hard to give up the hope about Mom. So sad.
3   I said to your mother the other day that, um, I was afraid
4   you girls were going to lose hope about her, and she said,
5   I don’t believe that. I won’t believe that until they tell
6   me that!" She was very angry with me when I would say that.
7   I was...have been so afraid that she would do this.
8, I hope, will keep working in therapy until you
9   don’t have any parts inside that are secret from you and
10   could betray you. How’s that sound?
11 AB: But where am I going to go?
12 SD: Where you going to go after? That’ll have to be figured
13   out. I did put a call in to Crissie, but she’d already gone
14   for the day, and I left her my nu...uh, my number here, and
15   I’ll be continuing to talk to her to let her know that you
16   know you’re not safe to be home with her, and to let her
17   know as, um, I’m not sure who’s dealing with Carol. I
18   don’t know if it’s Crissie or somebody else, but I know that
19   Paige has been explaining to them wherever they find for
20   Carol when she discharges needs to be a place that’s
21   safe and doesn’t have anybody that’s been cult active. So,
22   they have to look very carefully and get someplace very safe
23   for Carol and someplace very safe for you. And you’re a
24   very special little girl. You’re very easy to care for and
25   to care about, and it would be a very lucky place, whether
1   it’s a family, I mean a little family, or a big family, you
2   know, like a residential home or something, they’re going to
3   be a very lucky place that gets you. And today I think
4   they’ll be a pretty lucky place that gets Carol, too.
5   And you’ll (IA) - I should have figured that her loving you
6   and protecting you when she could, that some of that was
7   what, I mean, kind of makes you the neat person that you
8   are. Cause I think you know how to love and how to feel
9   about other people.
10 AB: I know what the Dalmatian meant...
11 SD: You do?
12 AB: ...with the colors on it. -
13 SD: Mm, hm. What was that?
14 AB: It means that he really doesn’t want to be changed, but
15   people change him, and it makes.. and they give him what he
16   needs, just what he needs, and that’s all. It’s like Cathy.
17   She doesn’t want to be changed, and so they only give her
18   what she needs.
19 SD: Who only gives her what she needs?
20 AB: Mom. But she doesn’t even do that any more.
21 SD: Mm, hm. Seems like that Dalmatian was okay with being those
22   colors, huh?
23 AB: No. He didn’t like it.
24 SD: He didn’t like it? Mm, hm. If that Dalmatian could talk,
25   what do you think he would have wanted to say?
1 AB: He wants somebody who really cares about him.
2 SD: Mm, hm.
3 AB: Instead of somebody who’s always wanting to change him.
4 SD: Mm, hm. He’s a very special Dalmatian, isn’t he? He has
5   different kinds of spots than regular folks, regular
6   Dalmatians. But he’s still a very lovable Dalmatian, isn’t
7   he? Yep. What would you think...would you like me to tell
8   your mother that you gave up on the hope of a healthy family
9   with her today? Yeah? She may need to hear that from your
10   mouth, too And, in that case, you may have to be brave in
11   one of these sessions and tell her that. But you don’t have
12   to look at her if she’s glaring And you don’t have to sit
13   by her.
14 AB: I was glad Dr. Peterson sat right there.
15 SD: Mm, hm. That felt better, huh? Yeah. That was a good
16   idea. I’ll tell Dr. Peterson that. I bet a lot of folks
17   inside will have some feelings to write and draw about,
18   won’t they? Yep. I wonder who did this? Anybody know?
19   This almost looked like the girl in the long white dress,
20   didn’t it?
21 AB: I don’t want to be a princess.
22 SD: No. I don’t want you to be a princess either. Did you
23   understand what they were saying about your 13th birthday?
24 AB: Yes.
25 SD: What do you understand?
1 AB: That if I hadn’t been in here, a lot of stuff might be
2   different.
3 SD: Can you be more specific?
4 AB: That...I don’t really understand what she meant by being
5   married to Satan.
6 SD: Mm, hm. Carol knew that she was bringing that up to
7   bring up a secret so that you would know what would have
8   happened to you on your 13th birthday. You would have been
9   raped, Alice.
10 AB: Oh.
11 SD: You do know that, don’t you? And part of you knew what was
12   ahead. And would still have been ahead, I guess, if you
13   went back to that family and there wasn’t some...and there
14   was somebody not safe in the home, like your mother. Can
15   somebody tell me about this fancy dress? A star up here,
16   too, at the corner. Does somebody inside want to tell me
17   about these fancy dressed ladies? Young girls? They don’t
18   look very happy.
19 AB: Somebody told me about being married when I was 13.
20 SD: Somebody inside?
21 AB: Somebody knew.
22 SD: Was this about this?
23 AB: They told me.
24 SD: Mm, hm.
1 AB: And somebody drew about it, about not being happy and hiding
2   their hands.
3 SD: I see that. Hiding their hands means, sort of like, uh, the
4   same thing as not feeling, being helpless, isn’t it? If you
5   don’t have any hands, you’re pretty helpless. I’m wondering,
6   these somebodies that helped draw about that and tell you,
7   I’m wondering if they could write about that tonight with
8   words? Maybe they know...maybe they were around when
9   somebody else turned 13. in the cult, and saw what
10   happened. I don’t know. The more I can tell Crissie, the
11   more it’s like ammunition I have for really, really
12   pressuring her to make sure that you will have a safe place
13   to go to sometime. Plus, of course, the more stuff we can
14   get these alters to, uh, come and join with us in therapy,
15   then the safer you will be, too. Ineed to have every,
16   every, every, every, everybody, big and little, that’s
17   inside that’s part of therapy. Hm. About to ask about
18   getting a roommate. Would you like somebody that’s on the
19   unit or somebody that’s, um, new that might come in? Do you
20   know what you want? What do you want?
21 AB: I want to be Whitney’s roommate again.
22 SD: Oh. You girls are getting along better, huh? Does she know
23   how to behave better than she used to?
24 AB: Mm, hm. She’s (IA)
1 SD: Mm, hm. Who would you ask about that? Wouldn’t you ask
2   Susan or somebody over there on the unit?
3 AB: The staff, but the doctor has to say yes.
4 SD: Mmmmm. I’ll mention that to Dr. Seward, if you like. The
5   one that knew about this has been scared for a very long
6   time and wondering if this would still happen when you got
7   out of the hospital. I really want for that one to write
8   everything she knows and has been scared about. I’m
9   wondering if anybody inside Alice knows anything about
10 you guys know the word, um, pornography? Do you
11   know the word dirty pictures? What is that?
12 AB: It’s where people don’t have any clothes on.
13 SD: Maybe they don’t have any clothes on? And maybe they’re
14   doing the kind of things that, that’s supposed to be, that
15   grown-ups do when they’re married, you know, and by
16   themselves, what grown-ups do to each other.
17 AB: Mm, hm.
18 SD: So, it has to do, um, usually with kids having their private
19   parts touched or being made to touch adults in a way that’s
20   uncomfortable and maybe not having clothes on. Sounds as
21   though Carol knew something about that, didn’t it?
22 AB: Why wouldn’t Mommy talk about it? Dr. Peterson even called
23   her stupid.
24 SD: She said that the cult really thought she was stupid,
25   expecting her to keep secrets about stuff thatís already out
1   in the open. It doesn’t seem real smart, does it? I can’t,
2   I don’t know how to answer that except to say, um, it
3   doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, either. But what I was
4   about to ask was if anybody inside Alice knows about child
5   pornography. Nobody’s answering? Could I ask the fingers?
6   Okay. And I know that if somebody inside knew about child
7   pornography, I knew, I know that that somebody or somebodies
8   would be real embarrassed about it and ashamed about it, if
9   somebody knew about that. And I know, also, that everybody
10   inside knew how brave Carol was being, and Carol
11   knows that the way to get rid of the shame is to talk about
12   this stuff, and brought it right up, I know about the child
13   pornography." So, she is your role model, if anybody inside
14   knows about it, that you, also, can tell about it and can
15   get free of that shame and free of the fear of ever having
16   to go back to it. I just wanted everybody inside to hear
17   that. Okay? So...which was the yes finger? Let’s let the
18   folks inside just think about that. That was the yes, and
19   now which was the no finger? (IA) over here, okay? So,
20   does anybody inside know something, have some experience
21   about, have any kind of story about child pornography with
22   the cult? I’d check that out because that would be a
23   terribly, shaming and embarrassing secret for anybody to
24   hold. And I wouldn’t want them to hold it. I’d want them
25   to be able to talk about it and get rid of it, like the cult
1   does. Well, Toodlebug, you’ve had a lot, uh, a lot of work
2   today. Are you, um, what do you think about food or hunger
3   or anything like that? Yes? Yes, somebody could be hungry
4   inside?
5 AB: Mm, hm.
6 SD: M’kay. Then I guess I’d better take you on back.
7 AB: Okay.
8 SD: And here’s your new books to go with you. I’m very pleased
9   with this work. And I’m so glad that somebody inside was
10   starting to draw the dresses about that wedding, about being
11   a princess, and at the same time that Carol was starting
12   to talk about it and show the pictures. I think that’s
13   really neat when both of you independently were coming up
14   with that information. You with the drawings and her with
15   the pictures.
16   (End of session)

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