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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #64, Side A - Date: 5/18/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

PETERSON: Judith Peterson, PhD.

BW. DAVIS: Sylvia Davis

WHITE: Barbara White

ALICE: Alice Brown

UF: Unidentified Female

(UI) Unintelligible


1   (BEGINNING OF SIDE A)
2   (FAINT VOICES AND NOISE)
3 WHITE: (UI) abreaction?
4 PETERSON: Um-hum.
5 WHITE: I just don’t understand why nobody picked it up at
6   the time of the abuse.
7 PETERSON: What did DICK say?
8 WHITE: He said that GEORGE was always bumping something.
9 PETERSON: Um-hum.
10   (PAUSE)
11 PETERSON: That happens with a lot of kids that are abused.
12   That the story becomes that the kid really bumps
13   things a lot and that the kid really bruises and the
14   kid learns to say things like, I fell down. Because
15   if they don’t say the right things they should be
16   punished. So they learn how to say the right things
17   real fast.
18 WHITE: Where... just...
19 PETERSON: And the parts down deep need to know that that’s
20   what GEORGE and DICK are dealing with, is that they are
     
    1
     
1   dealing with those, those real here and now issues
2   of what has really happened. I’m sure DICK is
3   feeling some guilt over not knowing. Of, of
4   accepting whatever answers were given. That would
5   be my guess. And he’s dealing with that too. A lot
6   of guilt as a parent.
7 WHITE: It just seems like, the further we get into this the
8   further ah, away I’ll ever be with DICK and GEORGE
9   because they’ll possibly freak out over what I’ve
10   done.
11 PETERSON: I don’t know. The issue is that GEORGE was not safe
12   here. The issue is that, he feels forever unsafe.
13   He, he continually feels like even if he does the
14   work that somehow they’ll come after him. And my
15   concern is uh, I think the same thing. That, that
16   you know DICK is losing (UI) and all of us have,
17   giving him the gift of knowledge. He’s giving
18   himself the gift of knowledge. He’s working on his,
19   what’s really happened to him. And it’s easier for
20   someone that’s only ten or eleven, they have less
21   history to go through. It sounds like he’s really
22   opened up, as to what has happened to him.
23 WHITE: But I gave, I gave information.
24 PETERSON: Um-hum.
     
    2
     
1 WHITE: To what some of that was stuff that I had given...
0 PETERSON: Um-hum. And some of the stuff that’s happened to
3   him are things that you haven’t remembered and that
4   I asked your fingers in the phone conversation if
5   they were down below that panic barrier and they
6   are. And those parts need to really hear that there
7   isn’t any reason not to, give information, you’re
8   not going back to abuse GEORGE, GEORGE won’t allow that,
9   neither will DICK. That’s past history. GEORGE’s
10   remembering. And I’m sure that he’s learning how to
11   say don’t hurt me, don’t touch me, leave me alone, I
12   won’t go with you, I don’t like that - all the
13   things that a child should learn to stay safe.
14 WHITE: (CRYING) And there’s part of me that worked so hard
15   to teach him those things.
16 PETERSON: To say those things? Yeah. As long as there wasn’t
17   a cult environment. And as long as it wasn’t your
18   abusing him. He learned all the right things to say
19   evidently in other environments. I know that that’s
20   real hard to hear, but that’s the truth.
21 WHITE: I wish he’d just told me that uh, towards the end
22   that, that we could begin to put it all together now
23   and, and do whatever you do to get me ready to go
     
    3
     
1   home. And then I could go rest and we could
2   integrate as a family again.
3 PETERSON: I think that’s a long ways off. That’s my sense.
4   But there’s so much to work on, so much to remember.
5   And the things come in layers. And with the real,
6   the real depth of things um, and you’ve worn those
7   parts, I think, I think it’s a very help.. .I don’t
8   understand on the phone what BOBBIE said, but, but I
9   said I thought that maybe four weeks have been spent
10   on the panic barrier now. That was my guess. And
11   BARBARA thought that was about right. In terms of her
12   resistance to those parts down deeper. And that
13   GEORGE is spending maybe 24 hours in resistance when
14   it comes to a new layer. And he has many, many
15   layers. And there’s a resistance, there always is.
16 DAVIS Um-hum.
17 PETERSON: But, it melts away real fast.
18 DAVIS Um-hum.
19 PETERSON: And then those parts come up. And the resistance in
20   an older person is always gonna be greater. We
21   always expect that. That, that’s, you know, that’s
22   understandable, but what those parts need to hear is
23   you can wait four weeks or six weeks or eight weeks
24   or 24 hours, and you can do work faster or slower.
     
    4
     
1   Now it needs to be paced so you’re not overwhelmed
2   and when BOBBIE says that there’s a resistance for
3   24 hours doesn’t mean every 24 hours a new whole
4   system is coming up or a whole new layer is, but
5   when something is nearby and she begins, I’m sure,
6   to call him on his resistance and tell him that’s
7   why "feels" happen that then that quickly erodes and
8   those parts come out. But they’re learning to do
9   that better and better as, as things go. And so you
10   all have a choice inside. You can spend resist...
11   the rest of your life in resistance. And if you stop
12   now, what DICK and GEORGE will have to say is, you
13   did not work on the things that happened that were
14   the worst things, and so you’re not able to be safe.
15   That that is a fact, in terms of where you are with
16   them. But they’re looking for the matching of your
17   memories with what GEORGE’s remembering. That he
18   really is helping you to know where you are. And
19   he, uh, started off behind you and as all kids do,
20   jump ahead of grown-ups. And then he can tell you,
21   as different holidays come up, or your memory just,
22   as you remember way down here. And not that just
23   this isn’t horrible. I’m not, I’m not negating that
24   at all. But then there’s another whole level of
     
    5
     
1   awareness, there’s whole groups of alters I think
2   that haven’t, maybe have hoped that it wouldn’t come
3   up.
4 WHITE: I hear what you’re saying. It’s just that I’m
5   working as hard as I can.
6 PETERSON: What I hear you say, is yes that you’re working as
7   hard as you can, what I need to tell you is, that
8   the alter’s down deep, don’t need for you to work as
9   hard as you can, they need to just come up. And
10   that the work of the parts on top, no matter how
11   hard they work, you’re not gonna make them come up,
12   I mean it’s a decision internally.
13 WHITE: But why won’t they, don’t they know... (Ul)...
14 PETERSON: I think it helps today, it feels hard. I think it
15   helps that they heard that GEORGE’s remembering. That
16   he’s remembering things that they didn’t want to
17   ever deal with. They felt it would help them know
18   that they don’t have to keep the secrets. They
19   really don’t.
20 WHITE: (CRYING)
21 DAVIS They agreed, that they needed the body to be in
22   restraints. That these other folks were gonna be
23   pressing. And I don’t know if we can really trust
     
    6
     
1   telling them, Barbara needs to go to some safe meadow
2   or some place.
3 WHITE: Yes.
4 DAVIS So that they can give me content, I don’t know. They
5   may not trust that uh, the others will stay away.
6 PETERSON: Well they may need to give you the content in
7   restraints, that happens sometimes.
8 DAVIS Yeah, that may be, so you think we might have to
9   have them be in restraints tomorrow for.,.
10 PETERSON: It might be just even just something to keep your
11   hands safe, you know we’ve done that before, a long
12   time ago, before SYLVIA starting helping us. That
13   uh, there were some things that you just weren’t
14   safe enough that you’d go after yourself, there was
15   too much of an impulse to hurt yourself.
16 DAVIS Um, hum.
17 PETERSON: For us to talk about it and so we didn’t use full
18   restraints or anything and we did the work in the
19   room.
20 DAVIS Like mittens or like what?
21 PETERSON: Like the soft restraints, the, you may not be
22   familiar with those. I’ll show you, the nurses have
23   them, they’re just little things they fit on your
24   wrists.
     
    7
     
1 DAVIS: Okay.
2 PETERSON:: You know what I’m talking about?
3 WHITE: Yeah.
4 PETERSON: And I wonder if they could journal, if they could
5   dictate to SYLVIA, with the soft restraints.
6   Wonder what the fingers think about that?
7 WHITE: Oh, I gotta. .I can do it.
8 PETERSON: Why don’t we ask the fingers if that’s safe? I
9   mean, I know we’re talking about real deep parts
10   that you’re just barely in contact with I think. So
11   I want to ask those parts down below first of all if
12   they are listening. And secondly, if with soft
13   restraints, I think you are familiar with them and
14   how they’ve been used before you’ve been watching
15   all this time, and I wonder if those would be safe
16   enough to be able to put the BARBARAs and the HOWARDs
17   and everybody aside and be able to dictate to
18   SYLVIA, maybe get out a little bit of the feelings,
19   to get the body safe.
20 DAVIS Okay.
21 PETERSON: And I wonder if, um, if there’s the mood.. well I
22   wonder if you’re beginning to feel the medication
23   now, and you, your being, you’re able to feel a bit
24   safer now. And I know that you had asked about
     
    8
     
1   restraints earlier, is there still the need, in
2   terms of safety, in terms of containment?
3 WHITE: No.
4 PETERSON: Okay.
5 WHITE: I’m gonna get through this. I wish I could say I’d
6   get through it for myself.
7 PETERSON: How about getting through it for all children?
8   Because what if you don’t work this out?
9 WHITE: It’ll go...
10 PETERSON: Huh?
11 WHITE: I’ll go.
12 PETERSON: Um hum, and I think GEORGE’s a very special little
13   boy, but I think it’s also pretty selfish trying to
14   do it for GEORGE. That in terms of doing it for all
15   children, that you’re a human being walking this
16   earth and you have a choice now, about whether or
17   not you’re a perpetrator.
18 WHITE: Uh, I don’t want to be.
19 PETERSON: Well that’s a choice your making now for all
20   children. They wouldn’t - they don’t have their own
21   child around if they don’t have it work out, they
22   just find some other child to abuse, some surrogate
23   child for them to go ahead and abuse. And I would
24   like to see that you’re doing this, not only for
     
    9
     
1   yourself but for all children. That you’re - you’re
2   helping, probably hundreds of kids, given their age.
3   That wouldn’t have rods stuck up their penis’ or
4   whatever else was done to him, that was so scary,
5   and so painful.
6 WHITE: I know if for a whole year his memories will stop...
7 PETERSON: His what?
8 WHITE: His memories will stop.
9 PETERSON: No. The reason I say that is that I don’t have a
10   sense from BOBBIE that he began with the really deep
11   memories until real recently. He had started before
12   I did the consult with some deeper memories and then
13   that really escalated since I did that consult that,
14   that’s, plus he now has ERIN - do you remember ERIN?
15 WHITE: ERIN FISHER?
16 PETERSON: I think that’s the right name, the art therapist? I
17   made a recommendation to SYLVIA that the art
18   therapist from the DD Unit go with the Child Unit
19   and work with GEORGE and she’s really, really good.
20 DAVIS Um.
21 PETERSON: And I showed her my slides I’ve got.
22 DAVIS Um-hum.
23 PETERSON: On no I haven’t showed her, I showed BOBBIE my
24   slides, I didn’t show ERIN.
     
    10
     
1 WHITE: Hum.
2 PETERSON: But ERIN’s really talented...
3 WHITE: Hum.
4 PETERSON: And works a lot like PAT. And uh, the art therapist
5   that did the Child Unit didn’t know anything about
6   de-sensitives or cult or anything and so they hadn’t
7   been using any art therapy. And I suggested that
8   that would be real helpful with GEORGE and evidently
9   he’s just done some amazing mapping and art work and
10   stuff, it’s been - just was ready to come out, which
11   I thought it was, so he’s really coming along that
12   way too and so, to answer your question, I think
13   that, I mean he had a whole lot of resistance for a
14   long time which was built into his system about
15   therapy and I don’t think - I’m thinking that it
16   wasn’t - I - I’m thinking that in November when I
17   saw BOBBY, that she was still pretty discouraged
18   about GEORGE’s future. And so I’m thinking it was
19   after that that he began to really work hard and
26   have his deeper memories so in terms of a whole year
21   of deeper memories, that’s what I’d be looking for -
22   more than a whole year of therapy. That he needed
23   that time to establish a good relationship with the
24   treatment team. And now he’s really in to the
     
    11
     
1   deeper stuff, but that’ll mean that it will be at
2   least Christmas, in terms of, and going through all
3   the Fall stuff, all the cult holidays. He didn’t go
4   through them at anywhere near the level he needs to,
5   to work that through. Nor have you.
6   (LONG PAUSE)
7 WHITE: I just seem so all alone. (CRYING) It feels like I
8   lost DICK and GEORGE. (UI).
9 PETERSON: No. But the parts down deep that haven’t talked
10   until now - were choosing to hope that it didn’t
11   come up.
12   (PAUSE)
13 WHITE:: I just, it’s just such a nightmare.
14 PETERSON:: Yeah, it really is. It really is.
15 WHITE:: I can’t imagine ever being normal again.
16 PETERSON:: What was normal?
17 WHITE:: Being superficial.
18 PETERSON: Um-hum.
19 WHITE: Going to school and teaching and not having...
20   (PAUSE)
21 PETERSON: See, what I see you as being that you never were
22   before (NOISES ON TAPE) is a, is uh, a real
23   sensitive feeling person. That really understands
24   what it’s like to be tortured. And, that, none of
     
    12
     
1   us are ever the same again once we know about this
2   patient or therapist. There’s no going back.
3 WHITE: Has there ever been a family situation as awful as
4   ours that has made it?
5 PETERSON: I don’t know. Because I don’t know what negative
6   means, Barbara.
7 WHITE: That little boy that used to be with, with GEORGE at
8   RUSH that they grew older and he went somewhere
9   else, I don’t know the circumstances. How is his
10   family doing?
11 PETERSON: I can’t talk about that. What I’m saying though is
12   that I don’t know what means success. But we’re at
13   the beginning of knowing the profoundness of the
14   abuse of kids of moms that we treat. That make
15   sense? That only in the last three or four years
16   have we known this. There aren’t a lot of GEORGE’s
17   that have had a chance. We’re having - we’re having
18   more and more of them come through programs. That
19   that’s really new stuff and so I don’t know the
20   future. We don’t have a big track record to go by.
21   A lot of the history in the making has happened on
22   this unit with the moms and the dads and the little
23   kids here. And that what we see is that they all
     
    13
     
1   have various outcomes. Depending on a lot of
2   things.
3 WHITE: Well you know I’m.. I’ll do the work, I’ve been
4   doing it all along.
5 PETERSON: Um hum. But the issue is that the parts down deep
6   need to do the work. There’s no doubt that you’re
7   motivated, but that’s not the issue. There’s no
8   doubt at all that you’re remembering. It’s the
9   parts down deep I’m talking to and you get that all
10   mixed up when I talk to those parts, because you
11   think I’m talking to you and it’s really hard, I’d
12   like, you know, I wish that somehow there was a way
13   for you to go down to your room, all the upper
14   alters, and leave just the ones down below the panic
15   barrier here and if you had wonderful amnesia and
16   didn’t remember it all then I could do that. But
17   you’ve never had wonderful amnesia. (LAUGHS) or
18   amnesia is all over the place, right? It’s
19   cluttered, in your head everywhere. And so I can’t
20   just say, okay all the rest of you go away and let
21   me talk to those folks and they’ll talk turkey, and
22   say how come you’re hiding down there. That’s what I
23   want to say is how come you are? It’s getting old,
24   and you’re punishing the body, we talked about that,
     
    14
     
1   were you on the phone when we were talking about the
2   punishment of the body?
3 DAVIS No.
4 PETERSON: About how much they have to punish the body, and I
5   asked her to ask the fingers if that was the case,
6   and it was, but they think if they just punish the
7   body long enough that BARBARA will give up. And this
8   is real I love mother stuff, this is I love mother
9   and I love the cult, is to punish the body and...
10 WHITE: Part of that is guilt too, how could I as a mother
11   do that to...
12 PETERSON: Most of that...
13 WHITE: .. .to...
14 PETERSON: Most of that is not guilt, BARBARA. And I don’t mean
15   you’re not guilty, feeling guilty. I mean that,
16   that I think there’s a part of you that knows that,
17   if I don’t do this work I should really get strong,
18   and physically stay - have some stamina, and so
19   those parts are just whittling you down. They
20   attempt not to work, as a part of let’s keep all the
21   secrets and go back to the cult.
20 WHITE: Wh...I know...
23 PETERSON: And those parts that...
24 WHITE: ... I know that.
     
    15
     
1 PETERSON: But see, I can’t even talk to them because those
2   parts cover up with BARBARA’s and everybody up above.
3   But what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna, I’m maybe - how,
4   how could we work this SYLVIA - can you be those,
5   those lower parts? Can I talk to you?
6 DAVIS Not, not now. We’re - she’s not in restraints.
7 PETERSON: But can I just talk to you about what I expect?
8 DAVIS Well, well alright.
9 PETERSON: What I expect...
10   (LOUD BEEPS)
11 PETERSON: Is for you to know, that, (PAUSE) what I expect is -
11   for you to know, that the body has to be kept strong
13   and the physical punishment of the body and if
14   you’re expecting to go back to mom. I mean, you can
15   if you want to but I would think that mom would
16   think that you’re a big failure because you’re not
17   bringing GEORGE back, you’re not bringing DICK back.’
18   And so that’s all gone - all the secrets are gone.
19   Cause GEORGE is, is telling, and all that’s in the
20   chart and the mom steals the chart and I’m sure she
21   reads it all the time, and has copies sent to her
22   and reads what GEORGE’s remembering, she knows.
23 WHITE: She’ll kill us.
     
    16
     
1 PETERSON: She’ll do something bad. I don’t think she’ll kill
2   you, I think she’ll torture you the rest of your
3   lives, as an example. Probably keep you in a cage
4   somewhere, I’m not sure what she’ll do, but you’re
5   real generate to begin with. And you’re not the
6   favorite person. And I don’t think there’s anything
7   you can do to make up for the loss of GEORGE. Is that
8   what you were doing, was trying to save GEORGE for
9   them by not giving up stuff about GEORGE? Because it,
10   it, it’s hopeless now, you’ve lost it. Now you
11   could join in the therapy and keep the body strong
12   and really help the BARBARAs and everyone go away,
13   which I know you did when you were abusing GEORGE. I
14   know you did that. That you make sure they were
15   long gone, they never knew what you guys really did
16   down deep. So you have a way to profoundly abuse
17   GEORGE and BARBARA not know. And so you have a way to do
18   that when you dictate with SYLVIA, and when you work
19   on the abreactions, you have a way to do that. You
20   did it in the cult. You know how.
21   ( PAUSE)
22 WHITE: I feel sort of ...
23 PETERSON: You know how to do it. And why don’t you stop
24   sending up the panic and all the junk and all the
     
    17
     
1   physical problems and everything else because - what
2   are you gonna go back to?
3   (PAUSE)
4   (KNOCK ON DOOR)
5 PETERSON: Yeah?
6 UF I just have a question for you, do you see, do you
7   need to check on MATT before I take him out of
8   restraints and move him? He wants to use the
9   bathroom and I’ve got everybody here, do you need to
10   see him at all?
11 Peterson I need to make sure that you - that you"re gonna
10   Restrain in the chair?
13 UF Yeah. I’m going to do that when, with...
14 PETERSON: Let me talk to you. Excuse me.
15 UF I didn’t know what your plans were...
16 WHITE: Sylvia, I’m afraid. I’m afraid that the memories
17   won’t match.
18 DAVIS Well that’s something you have no control of. It
19   has to be the ones below to come clean and come
20   clean and come clean until there’s a match.
21   (PAUSE) (SKIP IN TAPE)
20 WHITE: Yes I have, but I have soine memories. (UI).
23 DAVIS You have some memories right now.
24   (PAUSE AND LOUD NOISES)
     
    18
     
1 WHITE: I still sometimes get my abuse mixed up with GEORGE’s.
0 PETERSON: Well, I want to ask the fingers about that. I want
3   to ask if that’s a part of the deception. If so,
4   then it won’t be uncovered and it’ll get all mixed
5   up with your own stuff. Um-hum.
6 WHITE: Cause when you said about, the thing, sticking
7   something in his penis that was hot?
8 PETERSON: Uh-huh.
9 WHITE: I think it I had something like that done to me too.
10 PETERSON: Does that make sense?
11 WHITE: Yes, but I remember how it hurt, that...
12 PETERSON: Uh-huh.
13 WHITE: ... never wanted GEORGE to hurt that much.
14 PETERSON: But he did. And now the issue is that you can’t
15   stop what has happened, but you can stop what’s
16   gonna happen in the future. And to have the courage
17   to be able to deal with your own abuse of GEORGE, not
18   camouflaged by the abuse that you’ve suffered
19   yourself. That in fact that’s what all adults deal
20   with is they deal with both the abuse that occurred
21   to them and the abuse they did to others. They,
22   they can all do the abreaction about the whole thing
23   at one time, that it’s all gonna combine abreaction.
     
    19
     
1   But not to admit what you did as an adult. Does
2   that make sense?
3   (PAUSE)
4 WHITE: What about the phone call today, it was so much more
5   hopeful.
6 PETERSON: What made it not hopeful?
7 WHITE: I wanted DICK to say, "Barbara, you know we’ll always be
8   there for you, and as long as you’re working and as
9   long as GEORGE’s working, we’ll stay together."
10   Instead he says I don’t know what will happen in the
11   future. And I’m afraid to be left alone. I do the
12   work because of GEORGE and because of the other
13   children and because I deserve some kind of...
14 PETERSON: It’s probably real important for you to begin to
15   figure out well, what would I do? And how would
16   things be? Beyond what you’ve already decided that
17   I’m not going to be a perpetrator - that’s what
18   you’re not going to be? It’s important to begin to
19   figure out what you’re going to be.
20 WHITE: But I wanta be a good wife and good mother to GEORGE
21   and that might not be possible.
20 PETERSON: That might not be possible, because I have no idea
23   what DICK and GEORGE will decide. But it’s real
24   important that you begin to figure out, I mean you
     
    20
     
1   already know that you’d like to do that - there’s no
2   thinking about that, right? You don’t have to
3   wonder or decide, correct?
4 WHITE: Right.
5 PETERSON: Then the next thing to think about is well what else
6   would I do? What else would I like to do? How else
7   would I define myself?
8 WHITE: I can’t imagine, imagine any, anything else, being
9   old.
10 DAVIS Yet those are the simple kinds of problems that
11   probably two-thirds of the women in this country
12   figure out.
13 PETERSON: Uh-huh.
14 DAVIS Probably two out of three get divorced...
15 PETERSON: Uh-huh. And work on how I - how - what is my
16   identity? In a different kind of family.
17 DAVIS And kids grow up.
18 PETERSON: Uh-huh.
19 DAVIS And leave home. People have to have something else
20   besides uh, parent of a little boy who’s 40 years
21   old and wants to take care of himself.
20 WHITE: But they have jobs and they have friends, I’ve given
23   all that up, I have nothing.
     
    21
     
1 PETERSON: So one of the things that you’d want to do would be
2   to be thinking about appropriate jobs and how to
3   have - how to really begin to function and have
4   friends. Because, yes, coming down here, you let
5   that all drop. And it will be really important that
6   whatever job you pick it would be - my
7   recommendation would be that it not be with kids.
8   (PAUSE)
9 PETERSON: What you need to know is that in, in the United
10   States, I can’t - I don’t know what percentage, but
11   it’s a phenomenally large number of teachers every
12   year decide not to work with kids, and go into lots
13   of other fields.
14 WHITE: Yeah.
15 PETERSON: And so you have - you have lots of job skills and so
16   figuring out, what would I do, I will never
17   recommend that you teach. Maybe you could slip off
18   to some state and teach because they probably don’t
19   keep track very well, but I wouldn’t recommend
20   that you teach, but there are other things you could
21   do.
20 DAVIS It’d be to painful for you to remember what had
23   been.
24 PETERSON: Uh-huh.
     
    22
     
1 DAVIS Even if you could really trust yourself.
2   (PAUSE)
3 PETERSON: So I think that there’s lots of things to think
4   about. There’s a book called WHAT COLOR IS YOUR
5   PARACHUTE. You ever hear of that book? Every year
6   it’s updated. It has all - it’s written for folks -
7   where all the millions of people across the United
8   States have changed jobs, changed careers, and all
9   kinds of things, change of circumstances. All the
10   time.
11 WHITE: I feel like you’re getting me ready to, to say,
12   you’re never gonna be able to have any contact with
13   DICK or GEORGE again.
14 PETERSON: I don’t know what’s going to happen, I’m not getting
15   you ready for that, I’m getting you ready for life.
16   Life is, you’re not gonna teach, I hope. Regardless
17   of DICK or GEORGE. And if you are - if you always go
18   back to, this is catastrophic every time a
19   suggestion about what to work on - then you won’t
20   work on anything - you’ll just be in a state of
21   crises all the time, which is where the cult wants
22   you, and that’s the alters down deep sending yup
23   panic. Versus, you know, regardless there isn’t
24   gonna be a teaching job, but there might be lots of
     
    23
     
1   other things to do. People have to make decisions
2   like this all the time.
3   ( PAUSE)
4 PETERSON: And I think it’s important that you begin to decide,
5   begin to think about what it is that you want to do.
6   For example, say you’re here another six months, say
7   that happens, in the meantime you could take a
8   correspondence course or you could take some
9   vocational tests and begin to work on, on learning
10   about jobs or whatever, while you’re here. So
11   you’re really building toward your future.
12   Regardless of being married or not married, or
13   having GEORGE or not having GEORGE, I’m talking about
14   what you want to do as a person. This isn’t related
15   to marriage, this is related to...
16 WHITE: The thing is...
17 PETERSON: .. .you taught before.
18 WHITE: Huh? Do you think anybody would hire someone who
19   has an insurance record like I do?
20 PETERSON: Yeah, they just won’t cover your insurance. Yeah,
21   they, they’d hire you. I know a lady now that has a
22   similar background and she’s shelving bookstores for
23   a public library system.
24   (PAUSE)
     
    24
     
1 PETERSON: And, she doesn’t have their insurance, she’s not
2   insurable. But she has a job. And she really likes
3   it, it’s manual, she can use her thinking skills,
4   she likes working with the books, and she thinks
5   it’s a pretty safe job. She really enjoys it. And
6   that’s just an interim job for her while she learns
7   some other things. She’s going to school. Now that
8   lady’s thought about it and she’s decided to go into
9   accounting. Cause she happens to be really good
10   with numbers, her alters are really good with
11   numbers.
12 WHITE: Does she have a family?
13 PETERSON: That’s all I’m gonna say to you. As a - in terms as
14   that’s what we’re talking about, is what happens
15   when somebody chooses to go into something that they
16   hadn’t gone into before, they’re taking their skills
17   and they’re pointing to something different and she
18   used to be a teacher, and now she’s gonna go into
19   accounting. And she didn’t even teach math, she
20   taught elementary education, but she found out she
21   really has the math skills.
20 WHITE: That’s not my alters.
23 PETERSON: That’s not your alters, I don’t think. I don’t
24   think. One of the things that would be helpful I
     
    25
     
1   think would be to, uh, look at some uh, I’m not sure
2   which test would be the most helpful in terms of
3   where your skills are, so that you could have an
4   adult knowledge of where your skill levels are in
5   different subjects, cause my guess is you don’t have
6   a real good feel for that. DEBBIE could come and
7   give you a test like that, and then you could go
8   over it. It gives you a profile and then it shows
9   you - you get a booklet back and it shows you which
10   skills would go with which occupations, because
11   there’s always so many new occupations. And that’s
12   a test that’s updated a lot.
13 WHITE: I’ll have to read it. You know when, when BOBBIE
14   said your son is bright, I thought, well thank God
15   they didn’t destroy his mind. But I know they did
16   mine.
17 PETERSON: I think they did a lot of damage to your brain and
18   you know you have parts of your brain that have
19   lesions or things that I think they caused that.
20   But whatever was happening with you, I think that
21   you were able to cope in a teaching job. And I
22   think you’re gonna be able to be employed,
23   elsewhere, that’s not gonna be a problem for you.
24   There are people with 75 IQ’s that pump gas, or
     
    26
     
1   drive trucks, or you know, and you’re heads above
2   that. You know garbage truck drivers earn more than
3   school teachers in almost every state. I don’t
4   recommend you go collect garbage.
5   (PAUSE)
6 PETERSON: There are lots of things, I haven’t decided whether
7   I’d garden, go into gardening. Although I’ve got my
8   hip problems, I have to see, you have to decide what
9   your strengths and weaknesses are, everybody has
10   them. That’s probably not my biggest job. I also
11   wanted to clean houses. You know you make a lot of
12   money cleaning houses? I know a whole group of
13   school teachers that went into house cleaning and
14   they’re making a fortune. They clean houses in
15   River Oaks...
16 DAVIS Um-hum.
17 PETERSON: They get to live in these lovely houses all day long
18   and clean em and polish em and everything and they
19   make a bloody fortune. They go in as a crew so they
20   can all talk to each other.
21 DAVIS Um-hum.
20 PETERSON: They love that a whole lot more than teaching
23   adolescents. I thought it was a very very sensible
24   decision.
     
    27
     
1   (PAUSE)
2 WHITE: I wonder if GEORGE ever asks about me?
3 PETERSON: I don’t know.
4   (PAUSE)
5 PETERSON: I guess right now that in the middle of his pain,
6   that he’d have trouble doing that. That’s my guess.
7   And that’s reality. Does that make sense? But once
8   he’s over more of it that he’ll be better able to
9   assess where he is with you. Sounds like he’s
10   really in the thick of it right now. And he’s
11   really gotten down to some very important things
12   that he’s working on. And I would expect that he
13   wouldn’t be able to sort out how he feels about you
14   now, and he wouldn’t even be asking. But that,
15   that’s normal. Because it’s a process. I don’t
16   think he has the age, or the insight or has gotten
17   further enough in his treatment, to begin to think
18   about well where does that put my mom and dad.
19   Cause I’m sure he has a lot of anger towards DICK.
20   That you didn’t see or you didn’t do this or you
21   didn’t do that or you didn’t take care of me, you
22   didn’t protect me, and he has to deal with all that.
23 WHITE: Yeah, but DICK, he, I know DICK and GEORGE’s
24   relationship anymore, they’ll go back to having it.
     
    28
     
1 PETERSON: But I’m saying that the anger and all that he has to
2   deal with is very - is gonna be very very strong.
3   We’re talking about a kid that has been tortured,
4   and as far as he is concerned at this age, daddy let
5   it happen. And I’m not saying that it’s not
6   irreparable, I’m saying that it’s a big issue for
7   him, I’m sure. And when DICK continues to say, I’m
8   just trying to deal with every day Barbara, I think
9   what he’s not saying is that I’m dealing with some
10   really tough issues. Where my role as a father, a
11   protector, I’m dealing with my own feelings of
12   inadequacy, about not protecting GEORGE, I’m dealing
13   with my own rage, GEORGE’s rage.
14   (PAUSE)
15 WHITE: We didn’t deserve this.
16 PETERSON: No. But you’re doing something mom never did.
17   Now the ones that down deep, that say I love mom,
18   they’re attempting - they’re attempting to uh,
19   replicate mom. To be mom all over again and to live
20   mom’s life and to follow mom’s guidance.
21 WHITE: No, no more.
22 PETERSON: Well, that’s what they’re doing. And what’s
23   frustrating is that they’re readily communicating
24   with the fingers, when they get called on over the
     
    29
     
1   phone from Chicago, but were hiding out before then.
2   That really concerns me.
3 WHITE: But I gave you stuff over Mother’s Day and I thought
4   that that was.. .the stuff I gave you about Mother’s
5   Day and...
6 PETERSON: Was it the same things that BOBBIE was talking
7   about?
8 WHITE: Some of it, but not all of it. I’m not holding
9   back.
10 PETERSON: The alters are. The alter should be able, if
11   everyone in the system was talking, the alter should
12   be able to take a Mother’s Day and be able to go
13   down through the system from the ideal Mother’s Day
14   down to the most horrible events. Does that make
15   sense? That it’s layered? In terms of awareness
16   Okay? From the parts with DICK and GEORGE at the last
17   place, that whatever you did, that was what the
18   surface Barbara’s thought and the teachers thought or
19   whatever, down to the worst events that occurred
20   when DICK was drugged or when you did something and
21   called it a bruise or a fall or something like that.
22   And all the way down, you should be able to take
23   that event. With, with your mother’s birthday the
     
    30
     
1   same thing. You could take the birthday party and
2   go all the way down.
3 WHITE: We did that kind of thing but, cause it wasn’t, it
4   didn’t happen every year.
5 PETERSON: I would guess it did happen every year, but the
6   awareness is deeper. That the awareness of the
7   deeper things, isn’t up here right now. And so it
8   feels as if nothing happened, that’s where the
9   amnesia is, that’s when I say it’s foggy amnesia.
10   I’m gonna go check things for a minute, okay?
11   (DOOR CLOSES)
12   (LONG PAUSE)
13   (DOOR CLOSES)
14    
15 PETERSON: Okay, we’re gonna stop. You feel like you can be
16   safe?
17 WHITE: Yeah.
18 PETERSON: And you can ask for what you need tomorrow when
19   SYLVIA sees you.
20 WHITE: Yeah, probably, I go in restraints.
21 PETERSON: You wanna go in restraints?
22   (TAPE SKIPS)
23 PETERSON: Um-hum.
24 WHITE: I’m safe.
     
    31
     
1 PETERSON: Are you safe to go back to your room? And not hurt
2   yourself?
3 WHITE: Yes. (TAPE SKIPS) If I uh, begin to feel unsafe or
4   feel like I, I want to hurt myself...
5 PETERSON: Um-hum. Then?
6 WHITE: I’ll tell the nurse.
7 PETERSON: That’s what, on the price of the bean bag? Okay.
8   (END OF TAPE)
     
    32
     

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