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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #320, Side A & B - Date: 5/1/1992

(Sessions 5/1/92 & 5/11/92 mixed together on Side A & Side B)

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

BW. DAVIS: Sylvia Davis

ALICE: Alice Brown

(UI) Unintelligible


    (Beginning of Side A)
1 BW. DAVIS: You have much more fear about this than you do guilt, don’t you? I really
2   mean it. Check it out There’s no torture instruments in this room and I
3   haven’t left, either. I haven’t abandoned you. You are with people who are
4   not cult members. Are you listening? Wben you are with people who are not
5   cult members and who interact appropriately, it’s possible to get mad at
6   somebody you care a lot about, and it’s possible to be disappointed with
7   them and still not to desert them and not to abuse them. I’m really just --
8   You really caught me by surprise. I’m just really surprised there. Who else
9   is crying? Who else is here today? Hmm? Who else is here today that’s
10   crying, those little, bitty, whimpy sounds. Who is that? Alice? Who is doing
11   the crying and holding yourself? Is somebody else feeling bad inside because
12   they didn’t work? Who is this?
13 ALICE: Anna.
14 BW. DAVIS. Anna? Were you supposed to do some work in the book last night and you
15   knew it? Uh-huh? Anna, nobody’s hitting you, nobody’s abusing you.
16   Excuse me? I should have put a sign on the door that said "in session." You
     
    1
     
1   know what else is another feeling going on with me. Do you want to know?
2   Worry. Do you want to know why?
3 ALICE: (Inaudible.)
4 BW. DAVIS: Yeah? We have a lot to get done in this therapy. We have a lot to get done
5   in this therapy and I’m so afraid about the time, that if we waste the time, we
6   won’t be able to get it done. I’m very worried about that. Something else
7   had me worried too, which is, that -- and let’s just go ahead with the
8   session. I mean, it’s, you know, the milk is spilled. We just have to wipe it
9   up and go on now, okay?
10 ALICE: (Whimpering)
11 BW. DAVIS: What do you need right now so we can get on with the work today?
12 ALICE: You don’t like me anymore.
13 BW. DAVIS: You need to hear that, of course. I still like you and care about you? Yes. I
14   still like you and care about you. I didn’t cancel our session, did I? No, I
15   didn’t go away. Is it possible for people who like each other and care about
16   each other --
17   (End of this segment of 5-1-92 session)
18   (Beginning of session 5-11-92)
19 BW. DAVIS: Now, Diedra was not able to get herself free to attend the session. So she
20   will have to miss this session, which means there may be another one
21   planned for later in the week
     
    2
     
1 ALICE: Later in the week? This week?
2 BW.DAVIS: Uh-huh.
3 ALICE: Wow.
4 BW. DAVIS: In order to include her. She was invited and she wasn’t able to be in. Most
5   everyone except Red, this says, and a few others wish to go to the meeting
6   on Monday talked to us before the meeting. Yeah. Sea of sadness. Who is
7   in there, underneath there? Who is under there?
8 ALICE: I don’t know. I don’t think, so...I don’t think anybody.
9 BW. DAVIS: So that’s all that the alters wanted to write about this in an hour on Saturday
10   and an hour on Sunday? A window with a sad face in it. You’ve learned
11   how to make "with" like I do, like therapists do. How did you happen to
12   notice the therapist did it that way?
13 ALICE: It’s all over the place. Everybody writes "with" that way it’s on the goals
14   group board...
15 BW. DAVIS: Uh, huh.
16 ALICE: ...itís everywhere.
17 BW. DAVIS: Tessa has a little request. Uh-huh. Uh, huh. Hm. 1 think these drawings
18   are very important. They tell me a lot in terms of sadness and things that
19   people are thinking about, these things that Kendra and Tessa and Anna have
20   done. So Tessa wants a better house to live in. I would be very interested
21   to help her with that. Okay. So Alice, I guess l need to look and see what
     
    3
     
1   you have thought about, what you once said. Have you decided that you
2   want to go to a meeting or not.
3 ALICE: That’s upside down
4 BW DAVIS: I see. What do you think?
S ALICE: I think I’m going to go.
6 NIS. DAVIS: Think you’re going to go?
7 ALICE: I want to go.
8 BW. DAVIS: Okay. And do you know what you want to say?
9 ALICE: Kind of.
10 BW. DAVIS: Kind of? Okay.
11 ALICE: Those are all the questions I could think of.
12 BW DAVIS: U-huh. What’s this word?
13 ALICE: Several. I make my E’s weird. Most people can’t read my handwriting.
14   (Long Pause)
15 BW. DAVIS: I will forever hate Mother’s Day. Is this you? Is there anything about
16   Mother’s Days of the past, that comes to your mind...in terms...?
17 ALICE: Good things?
18 BW. DAVIS: Hm?
19 ALICE: Good things?
20 AW. DAVIS Aoth, either.
21 ALICE: I used to like Mother’s Day.
     
    4
     
1 AW DAVIS: Uh-huh
2 ALICE: Because we used to go out and do things together with Mom.
3 NIS. DAVIS: Mm, hm.
4 ALICE: I liked making her stuff on Mother’s Day.
5 AW DAVIS: Uh-huh. You say here, "I will forever hate Mother’s Day." What’s that
6   about?
7 ALICE: Because my Mother’s Day was terrible this year.
8 AW. DAVIS: And that was why?
9 ALICE: It’s kind of like Easter. It was lonely, I didn’t have my mom.
10 AW. DAVIS: You say here that it will be hard to see her again. And that you don’t know
11   if you can ever forgive her for the stuff she did to you. Does that have
12   something to do with deciding that you’ll always hate Mother’s Day? Is that a
13   head shake "yes?" You have so many people that have such big tears and cry
14   inside, but they don’t open their mouths. Their mouths are always shut.
15   There’s not a sound coming out, though. I’ve given her some sounds. What
16   do you think? You’re shaking your head "yes." Do you think she would like
17   to make those sounds? I don’t krow. I guess that was -- well, that was --
18   you do it then? You’d like to give her those sounds. Do you know how to
19   do it? You put a balloon around the words, and you put a little marker like
20   that from her mouth. Yes. At least in the drawings they should be able to
     
    5
     
1   make sounds, don’t you think? Huh? How about her? Could she have some
2   sad sounds come out too to go with her tears?
3 ALICE: She’s not crying.
4 AW DAVIS: She’s not?
5 ALICE: Uh-Uh. It’s her eyes, her nose, and her mouth.
6 AW. DAVIS: What does she want to say? Something, this was an angry note, wasn’t it? I
7   don’t think I’ll ever forgive her. I will forever hate Mother’s Day. Doesn’t
8   that sound angry? So what should she say? What kind of words should she
9   say?
10 ALICE: I hate Mothers Day?
11 AW. DAVIS: Maybe so, or ggrrrrr. Ggrrrr. Okay. So these are the questions. Do you
12   want to take just this page out for the session? I was thinking if you brought
13   the whole notebook, somebody might ask to look at it, and I didn’t know if
14   you wanted to show it or not. Thought so.
15 ALICE: The only people I want to see it is you, Dr. Peterson and Dr. Seward, and
16   Aileen, and Pat can see it if she wants to.
17 AW DAVIS: You’ll have to decide what you want to happen to these notebooks before
18   you leave the hospital. Someday.
19 ALICE: What do they usually do with them?
20 AW. DAVIS: Someday.
21 ALICE: What do they usually do with them?
     
    6
     
1 AW. DAVIS Mostly it’s adults that can protect their own privacy, but since you’re a kid,
2   you can’t.
3 ALICE: Don’t they have what’s called a shredder?
4 AW. DAVIS: Is that what you’d like to happen to your notebooks when you leave?
5 ALICE: Uh-huh. What would you do with them?
6 AW. DAVIS: If I were you and I didn’t want them read, I don’t think I’d take them away.
7 ALICE: From the hospital?
8 AW. DAVIS: If I didn’t want anybody ever to get to read them except the people who
9   were here at the hospital, I sure wouldn’t take them away from the hospital.
10 ALICE: Leave them here?
11 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh.
12 ALICE: I’m going to leave them here. Probably.
13 AW. DAVIS: It’s up to you. It’s up to you. Okay. These are the questions that you want
14   to ask, and Diedra won’t he there. Who will be there will be, well, I guess
15   your daddy and your mom, and Carol, I assume, and you and Dr.
16   Seward and Dr. Johnson. That’s your mother’s--
17 ALICE: I get to meet him finally.
18 AW. DAVIS: I guess so. He’s your mother’s psychiatrist. and me.
19 ALICE: You?
20 AW. DAVIS: Of course. Iíll be there You’re pulling my leg, aren’t you?
21 ALICE: Is Susan going to be there?
     
    7
     
1 BW. DAVIS: Susan.
2 ALICE: Roth.
3 AW. DAVIS: Who is that?
4 ALICE: Susan Roth. (Inaudible)
5 AW. DAVIS: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think we’re going to keep it to the
6   family and the, and the therapists and the doctors of everybody. So these
7   are the questions that you wanted to ask. And you understand that if you
8   ask these questions that there might be some questions about your questions.
9 ALICE: Like why do you want to know.
10 AW. DAVIS: Or like, um, uh, what do you mean my medicine didn’t work while I was in
11   Chicago? Why do you think it didn’t work?
12 ALICE: Because he didn’t remember anything.
13 AW. DAVIS: How do you know?
14 ALICE: Because Dr. Peterson said there was no evidence that he was in the cult.
15 AW. DAVIS: Yeah, the test didn’t show any evidence or that he had ever had involvement
16   with the cult, I think was her word like being shocked or whatever --.
17 ALICE: Yeah.
18 AW. DAVIS: And how do you know that he was?
19 ALICE: How do I know that what was?
20 AW. DAVIS: That he was hurt by thc cult
21 ALICE: Because I remember stuff
     
    8
     
1 BW. DAVIS: Okay So, just so you know that there will probably be questions like that.
2   Especially since daddy doesn’t remember, right? Okay. Is it all right with
3   you if they ask me questions about what you said in therapy? Do you want
4   me sometimes to talk for you? But it’s okay if I tell some of those things that
5   you have come up with as memories and drawings and stuff.
6 ALICE: Do you want to take drawings and show?
7 AW. DAVIS: Do you? Then I don’t want to, either. I want you to be as comfortable as
8   you can in the meeting so that you can be as brave as you can, okay, in
9   saying what you need to say to be comfortable and to tell your concerns
10   about your safety.
11 ALICE: Will I be able to hug Daddy?
12 AW DAVIS: Do you want to? I guess we’ll see if he wanted to.
13 ALICE: Will I be able to hug Cathy?
14 AW. DAVIS . I guess if you want to. We’ll have to see if she wants to.
15 ALICE: Her hair is long.
16 AW. DAVIS: Is it? When did you see her?
17 ALICE: This morning.
18 AW. DAVIS: Where?
19 ALICE: At breakfast.
20 AW DAVIS: At breakfast, huh?
21 ALICE: It’s long.
     
    9
     
1 AW. DAVIS: I’m going to tell you that it looks as though she may leave the hospital soon.
2 ALICE: Go where?
3 AW. DAVIS: See if CPS will find a place for her.
4 ALICE: Why?
5 AW. DAVIS: It seems to me -- and you may ask her about this yourself, okay? Okay?
6   What’s going on?
7 ALICE: I don’t want her to go away. (Crying)
8 NIS DAVIS: Because?
9 ALICE: I want her to stay here.
10 NIS. DAVIS: Because;
11 ALICE: In case she might never come back.
12 AW. DAVIS: What would keep her from coming back?
13 ALICE: I don’t know.
14 AW. DAVIS: Then maybe you’re going to want to tell her that.
15 ALICE: Why does she have to go away?
16 AW. DAVIS: Well, how people, you guys have good insurance, okay, but how people get
17   to stay in the hospital is not just to have good insurance You have to be
18   working. Do you think it would be important to your treatment to have her
19   be able to stay in the hospital and work?
20   (Knocking on Door)
21 AW. DAVS: Yes?
     
    10
     
1 ALICE: So she has to leave because she’s not working?
2 AW. DAVIS: Well, umm, you probably might want to ask her about that, okay? I just, It
3   just suddenly occurred to me that that would not be a very good thing to
4   come as a surprise to you, and if nobody brought it up in the meeting --
5 ALICE: Is Mommy going away, too?
6 AW. DAVIS: There’s no plan about that. You want her to stay in treatment, too? And I
7   guess you have some sayings about that, too. You’re crying pretty hard. I
8   guess that sounds pretty bad to you that they might leave the hospital. I don’t
9   think anybody has any idea about your mother being in the hospital. Do you
10   read the newspapers over here, Alice?
11 ALICE: Sometimes.
12 AW. DAVIS: Do you know they...do you want to have a blow, sweetie? I don’t mean
13   to...there’s Kleenex right there. And I can just be quiet while you cry,
14   because there’s no need for you to rush on your crying. You can have your
15   sadness in this and make noises about it, like you let the drawing make
16   noises. It’s okay?
17 ALICE: I don’t want to lose my sister.
18 AW. DAVIS: You think her leaving the hospital would mean you’re losing her? You’re
19   shaking your head yes. Uh-huh?
20 ALICE: Why does she have to go away?
     
    11
     
1 AW. DAVIS: She seems to be -- my impression is -- I don’t see her, okay, so I might not
2   have this a hundred percent accurate, okay, Alice? But my impression has
3   been that she wants to leave the hospital, that somehow she is wanting to
4   leave and go to CPS instead of keep working on her therapy. It seems very
5   scary, so very, very scary. It’s got to be hard for you, Alice, to hear that.
6 ALICE: I don’t want her to go away.
7 AW. DAVIS: Then maybe you really need to say that as strongly as you can to her in the
8   session, huh. I am hoping everybody else that’s inside that cares about
9   Carol is listening to this, because Alice might need some help and some
10   support from inside to be able to tell Carol what that would mean to her.
11 ALICE: What if they all go away?..
12 AW. DAVIS: Ahhhh, What if?
13 ALICE: When will I go?
14 AW. DAVIS: I don’t think you have to go until you’re ready to go, until you’ve worked
15   your treatment. If you want to get treatment so you can really be safe. I
16   think you can still be able to stay.
17 ALICE: What if they all leave me here alone?
18 AW. DAVlS: I don’t think your mother is ready to leave yet. And I wish with all my heart
19   that Carol would hear you and would decide to stay and to work on her
20   therapy. I wish that with all my heart. At the time that we were meeting
     
    12
     
1   together on Friday, I knew that she was meeting with her therapist who
2   might also be in the room today. I don’t know.
3 ALICE: Who is her therapist?
4 AW. DAVIS: Trish. Her name is Trish Taylor, and I know that Trish is going to be trying
5   very, very, hard to get her to work and to be unstuck. And I was hoping it
6   would happen, and I didn’t know until this morning that that hadn’t happened
7   yet. It will be her choice. I don’t understand how she can make the choice,
8   but, you know, I don’t hardly know her. You know her and you care.
9 ALICE: When are they going to take her?
10 AW. DAVIS: Well, it won’t be instant[ly]. If she still holds to her decision to not work and to
11   be discharged, it won’t happen instantly. CPS would have to find a place for
12   her.
13 ALICE: What does Mommy say?
14 AW. DAVIS: She’s very upset. She’s very upset that Carol would be choosing this
15   way.
16 ALICE: She’s worked so hard, though..
17 AW. DAVIS: Who has?
18 ALICE: Cathy.
19 AW. DAVIS: I guess not lately. I guess not. You don’t usually want hugs, Alice, or
20   ask me for anything. I’m wondering if you think you want one now or if
21   anybody inside wants a hug? Yeah. Please let the one’s that don’t want
     
    13
     
1   a hug go to the back because I don’t want anybody to have a hug that
2   doesn’t want it. But let all the ones that want a hug come to the front, okay?
3   Okay. (Inaudible) It’s taking you, it took you a while to he able to cry like
4   this with me and to where you can really have your tears. And that was a
5   good part of work where you should be able to do that. It wasn’t...uh-huh.
6   Will you be able to let yourself cry in the session if you need to? So that
7   Carol -- not to manipulate Carol -- but so that she’ll really see how
8   much you care about her?
9 ALICE: Uh-huh.
10 AW. DAVIS: Will be give yourself permission to cry in that room if you need to?
11 ALICE: Uh-huh.
12 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh. Yes?
13 ALICE: Uh-huh.
14 AW. DAVIS: So Bethany and others, you need to hear that, and if Alice needs to cry in
15   session, please let her.
16 ALICE: I don’t want to lose my sister.
17 AW. DAVIS: I know. I don’t want you to lose her, either. And you really feel, it seems
18   like you feel that you’d be losing her, huh? Yeah. She needs to hear that.
19   She really needs to hear that.
20 ALICE: Is Krissi her social worker?
     
    14
     
1 AW. DAVIS: I don’t know who her social worker is. My guess is that probably that’s so.
2   Do you need to write to Krissi?
3 ALICE: Uh-huh.
4 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh? Okay. So there’s two big things for this session today. One is
5   about what you need to say about Daddy, and the other is what you need to
6   say, or say to Daddy, about Daddy as it is. And the other is what you need
7   to say about your sadness and fears for Carol and your need for her to
8   stay in treatment.
9 ALICE: Uh-huh. What about Mommy?
10 AW. DAVIS: What about Mommy staying in treatment?
11 ALICE: Uh-huh.
12 AW. DAVIS: If you’re scared about that, too, then you’d best be telling her about that,
13   too, just in case the idea would come up. Okay.
14 ALICE: I don’t want everybody to go away.
15 AW. DAVlS: Uh-huh. You want the family to be in treatment, don’t you?
16 ALICE: Uh-buh.
17 AW. DAVIS: Because, like...because why?
18 ALICE: Because I need my family when I get out of here, so everybody can be a
19   family again.
20 AW. DAVIS Uh-huh, and if they drop out of treatment. What does that mean?
21 ALICE: We’re not a family any more.
     
    15
     
1 AW. DAVIS: Yeah, at least not a safe one. huh?
2 ALICE: Uh, huh.
3 AW. DAVIS: Yeah, that’s what I thought you meant. Okay. Do you want me to check
4   with any of the guys inside and see if they have some other things to say
5   about this that would be useful in the session? Because they might have
6   something even that they don’t want -- that would be hard for you to say and
7   maybe they don’t even want to say it. But they might have something that
8   they want me to say that would help out the situation. What do you think of
9   that? Yeah? Okay. And of course, I’ll bring you back before the end of the
10   session, okay? Uh, do you want to check and see if they want you just to
11   step back so that they can have a turn if they need you to go to the safe tree?
12   Check and see about that would you? And...and you could keep crying
13   there at the safe tree if you want to. But check inside and see. Okay?
14 ALICE: They want me to stay.
15 AW. DAVIS: They want to you stay? Do you want to just back up a little bit so they can
16   talk? Okay. All right, sweetheart. Can you do that? Are you able to do
17   that? Okay.
18 ALICE: Uh-huh. I need to blow my nose.
19 AW. DAVIS: Okay. Have a good blow.
20 ALICE: Yuck.
     
    16
     
1 AW. DAVIS: This light isn’t going on. I’m going to make sure that it’s...it is, it’s
2   recording well enough that if we talk up a little bit, okay I think we need to
3   put in a new battery pretty quick, though. Okay. So who should have a
4   turn about anything else besides this list and besides telling Carol that
5   you need her to stay in treatment and telling Mom that you need her to stay
6   in treatment? Who else will have something else that needs to be said, either
7   by Alice, or that you want me to say for you?
8 ALICE: Bethany.
9 AW DAVIS: Bethany? Okay. What do you need to say, dear?
10 ALICE: That it’s awful lonely without my family.
11 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh.
12 ALICE: And I think that if everybody works real hard, we might be able see each
13   other more often and then it wouldn’t be so lonely any more.
14 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh. Okay. Anybody else? I’m wondering if Red would come forth and
15   talk to me for a minute? Red and the others that didn’t want to come to the
16   session. And if you need for Alice to go to the tree so that you can talk,
17   would you please tell her that and come out, because this is very important
18   for your future? Red and the others that don’t want to come to the session.
19   Who do I have here?
20 ALICE: Anna.
21 AW. DAVIS: Anna? Hi dear... You don’t want to go to the session? You do want to go?
     
    17
     
1 ALICE: Yeah.
2 AW. DAVIS: Okay.
3 ALICE: Now I do.
4 AW. DAVIS: Now you do. Okay. Do you have something you want to say or something
5   you want me to say for you to anybody?
6 ALICE: Not for Cathy to go away.
7 AW. DAVIS: Not for what?
8 ALICE: Cathy to go away.
9 AW. DAVIS: Not for Cathy to go away. Alice’s going to be saying that. Can you help
10   her to say that real strong? Yeah. Yes. Yes, I know. Okay.
11 ALICE: I thought she was working really hard to get out of here.
12 AW. DAVIS: I think there must have been a time when she was.
13 ALICE: Because everybody used to say Cathy’s working really hard.
14 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh.
15 ALICE: And Mommy’s working really hard.
16 NIS DAVIS: Uh-huh.
17 ALICE: And I, and I don’t know, I don’t know. What happened, why did she stop?
18 NIS. DAVIS: I don’t know either sweetheart, because I don’t work with your sister.
19 ALICE: Is she afraid?
20 AW. DAVIS Do you want to ask her that? Do you want Alice to ask her that, or would
21   you just help Alice to ask her that.
     
    18
     
1 ALICE. Uh-huh.
2 AW. DAVIS: When you ask her that, you have to ask her that. If she’s afraid and if that’s
3   why she’s not working. I think that would be very important. I’m
4   wondering, are you afraid, Anna? Uh-huh? Would you be willing to tell
5   Carol that, that you’re afraid and that it’s important to you for her to be
6   brave so you can keep being brave?
7 ALICE Aecause in the meeting that we had with Cathy that one time...
8 AW. DAVIS: Mm, hm.
9 ALICE: ...she told me that it was okay and that helped me to start working harder.
10 AW. DAVIS: And you, everybody, or most everybody in the Alice system has been
11   working. I’ve been pleased with every single one that’s come out to draw, to
12   write, to talk to me, to remember, to share, to feel. Yes. That would be
13   important to tell her, that her bravery and saying it’s okay to feel and to tell
14   was important to you. That’s a very important thing. Can you guys
15   remember that? And Alice too. Okay. Anything else, Anna? Okay. Red, can
16   you please come and take a turn? Are you cold? Just scared, huh? Just
17   comforting yourself? Uh-huh. Red, do you still not want to come to this
18   meeting? You don’t have to come to the meeting. Nobody is going to make
19   you come to the meeting. This is not like the cult where if they call your
20   name and say you have to do something, you have to do it. You have
21   choice, okay? You have choice. Even if you’re the only one that goes to the
     
    19
     
1   ice cream parlor or the safe tree or whatever, while everybody else goes.
2   You may do that. Is there anything you want me to say for the system? And
3   I don’t have to fasten your name to it if you don’t want me to. Is there
4   anything that you want said in this session?
5 ALICE: I want everybody to try to work hard.
6 AW. DAVIS: Mm, hm.
7 ALICE: ...so we can all be family again.
8 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh.
9 ALICE: And I don’t want Cathy to go away either.
10 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh. And do you need for your dad to -- are you afraid about your dad
11   not having his memories?
12 ALICE: A little bit.
13 AW. DAVIS: Are you a little bit afraid of that? Yeah. I can really understand that. Yep.
14   let me ask Red and everybody else in the system, if your mother asks
15   questions about your memories and says, "Do you have any memories of this
16   event," if she asks that in the session, do you feel brave enough to answer?
17   Okay. That’s okay. That’s okay. Is it okay with you if I answer the
18   question about stuff that you’ve written about and some of it that you sent to
19   Chicago to help Daddy. Is that okay...if I can answer about some of those
20   memories? Okay. Okay. So you warn me to, but you can just look at me
21   then to answer if you need me to. Okay?
     
    20
     
1 ALICE: Where will you sit?
2 AW. DAVIS: Where do you want me to sit?
3 ALICE: Next to me.
4 AW. DAVIS: I will sit right by you. I will sit right by you. Do you want Gerber to come
5   to the session, too? It’s up to you. He doesn’t take up any space. Yeah?
6   Somebody would like Gerber to be there. Okay. Some people feel they
7   don’t need him. Okay. Anybody else have anything that they need to say to
8   me? Anybody at all? Check it out, up and down, even the ones that haven’t
9   come to therapy very much. Or maybe they’re only a name somewhere or
10   something. Please let Tessa know that I want to hear about her house and
11   making it safer. Does Tessa want a turn now? Yeah? Okay. Let’s let
12   Tessa have a few minutes of therapy then. Ok, Tessa, hi. You wrote that
13   you would like some help to make your house safer. Could you tell me what
14   you meant by that?
15 ALICE: I don’t know except there’s nothing in it, it’s just my house. There’s not
16   many people for a long time.
17 AW. DAVIS: Is this your house inside the body? Okay. It’s your house inside the body,
18   not the one like the hospital room or anything. Okay. Hmm. So you have
19   your very own little house inside, huh? Do you know when you made your
20   house?
21 ALICE: A long time ago.
     
    21
     
1 AW. DAVIS: A long time ago? When you needed it, huh?
2 ALICE: Mm. hm.
3 AW. DAVIS: Yeah. Okay. Hmm. I’m wondering if you could tell me about what
4   happened that you needed it. Do you remember what happened that you
5   needed it? You forgot why you needed it?
6 ALICE: Sort of.
7 AW. DAVIS: Sort of. Does anybody else know about what happened that Tessa needed to
8   have her own little house inside?
9 ALICE: I know a little bit.
10 AW. DAVIS: Who are you?
11 ALICE: Tessa.
12 AW. DAVIS: Okay. You know...tell what little you know, and others inside please help
13   out Tessa, to help say why she needed her own little house inside? Why was
14   that?
15 ALICE: They would always pull me out and tell me to go out, and I didn’t want to, so
16   I built a house and hid in it for a long time.
17 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh. Who would call you out?
18 ALICE: Everybody.
19 AW. DAVIS: Inside? What would they pull you out to do?
20 ALICE: Just to be out instead of Alice.
     
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1 AW. DAVIS: Oh. When would they pull you out? What was going on that they would
2   pull you out?
3 ALICE: Meetings.
4 AW. DAVIS: Meetings? And you didn’t like them either.
5 ALICE: So I made a house and I hid in it for a long time.
6 AW. DAVIS: That was pretty smart of you.
7 ALICE: I thought about hiding with the pink monster.
8 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh.
9 ALICE: But I couldn’t wake him up to ask him if I could stay with him.
10 AW. DAVIS: Oh. Would you like to move into quarters with him? I wonder, he wakes up
11   a little faster now. Since he had his time with the sand tray and the drawings
12   and stuff. Let’s ask inside and see if he is willing for you to have some
13   space in his cave, and let him know that we can make his cave bigger so that
14   there’s room for you to fit there. He’s willing?
15 ALICE: Uh-huh.
16 AW. DAVIS: Okay. Let’s. uh -- the two of you together need to figure this out then. You
17   need a while, you need a room there? A whole room? Well, you probably
18   need your own bedroom don’t you, in the cave? Yeah. Okay. (Inaudible).
19   (End of 5-11-92 session)
20   (Continuation of session 5-1-92)
     
    23
     
1 AW. DAVIS: These are work and these are how some folks can work . All you just do is
2   took colors in your hand and a pen or something and you write. Now here is
3   the other piece. And I’ll need for everybody to be listening up, every every
4   everyone, even the ones not in therapy yet that are just peeking, and also
5   Alice. Alice needs to come back, too, okay? Let me know when she’s
6   back, too. Okay, buddy. I’ve asked everybody to stay and listen up and
7   gather close to the front and hear something, okay? Umm, it’s two
8   somethings, one is we really need for the body to sit down with these
9   journals for a period of time each day so that those who want to be safe and
10   want to be in therapy can write, and so that those who don’t want to be in
11   therapy can write that they don’t want to be in therapy, and that’s okay. But
12   they need to be telling me what’s the truth for them and they need to say,
13   "Well, I know all about the shocking and I’m not gonna tell you," if that’s
14   what it is, "because I’m scared," okay? I don’t think you have anybody in
15   your system that’s capable of being quite that rude, do you? Probably not.
16   So my question, Alice and others, is how much time do I need to ask Susan
17   to have set up so that -- I think it’s called a table schedule or something like
18   that, and it means that you need to put so many minutes of sitting with the
19   journal every day, and then you start your free time. So what do you think is
20   a reasonable amount of time? What do you think is the best amount of time
21   so that you can really help in, uh, help in your treatment and helping stay, be
     
    24
     
1   safe? I think you probably want to have at least five minutes for the ones that
2   like to come out and draw me little pictures and write their names. At least
3   five minutes for those guys that like to draw trees and faces and these good
4   things, or write me just little notes or something, about how they’re doing or
5   something. I think you need at least five minutes for those guys. And then
6   how long do we need for the ones like --
7 ALICE: Thirty minutes.
8 AW. DAVIS: You think 30 minutes? So 35 minutes?
9 ALICE: Thirty-five minutes
10 AW. DAVIS: Five for those kids and then 30 for the rest, or did you mean 30 altogether?
11   What did you mean?
12 ALICE: We should have a little more than five minutes.
13 AW. DAVIS: Okay.
14 ALICE: Forty-five minutes.
15 AW. DAVIS: Forty-five minutes a day?
16 ALICE: Uh-huh.
17 AW. DAVIS: Every day?
18 ALICE: Uh-huh.
19 AW. DAVIS: Are you sure?
20 ALICE: Uh-huh
     
    25
     
1 AW. DAVIS: Okay. That will be good .We’ll tell Susan about that. Now, here’s the other
2   part that has to do with truthfulness. Is it true that you’re a very happy kid
3   and life is just wonderful? How come I keep reading in the chart that Alice
4   was joyful? Alice was very happy, no signs of depression or loneliness?
5 ALICE: I don’t know.
6 AW DAVIS: Well, here’s what I wonder, and you correct me if I’m wrong, because I
7   wasn’t there, of course, okay? I have to think about what happened if I read
8   that kind of note in the chart. I have to think, did Alice go to the group and
9   did she share in the group, umm, I’m really sad and I’m really scared about
10   my dad and I’m having a hard time with my journal because I’m afraid and
11   don’t want to tell secrets and I’m really scared and I’m really lonely and did
12   somebody writing the note think, Oh. I don’t believe that. I’m just going to
13   say this kid’s happy," and lie in the note? Or did Alice kind of go to group
14   and think, this staff person wants me to be happy and everybody else is being
15   kind of happy and I want them to like me, so I’m going to be cheerful and
16   I’m going to be bright and I’m going to have a good time now. I’m going to
17   forget my problems while I’m out on the unit or while I’m in these groups.
18   (Session 5-1-92 continues on Side B)
19   (Side B- continuation of session 5-1-92)
20 AW. DAVlS: No. What, when you don’t want to think about the bad stuff. what you’re
21   trying to do is push down those feelings and have the other feelings.
     
    26
     
1 ALICE: No that, yeah that’s what I’m talking about.
2 AW. DAVIS: Okay.
3 ALICE: But I mean that’s what I’m working on. That’s my goal is to express my
4   feelings and so, it’s hard.
5 AW. DAVIS: Okay. I suggest to you that how you’ve been expressing them -- because
6   you came into the session several days this week, Alice did, and cried her
7   heart out, right? And some of the others, too -- And then I read in the notes
8   that, "No bad feelings. This kid’s very cheerful. No sign of depression."
9   That’s a lie, isn’t it? So how do you have to make that right?
10 ALICE: Express how I feel.
11 AW. DAVIS: And if you are going to try and forget the bad feelings and fake being happy
12   for a little while, could you bring yourself to say that? Could you tell people
13   the truth about that?
14 ALICE: Try.
15 AW. DAVIS: Did you tell anybody else that you cried in session yesterday? Who?
16 ALICE: Whitney.
17 AW. DAV1S: But you kept it a secret in groups and to the staff, huh?
18 ALICE: I told in group, inside the therapy.
19 AW. DAVIS: Uh-huh. Not on the unit, huh? You need to be a lot more honest with this
20   unit staff. And when people ask you how you are you need to tell them the
21   big truth. You need to tell them the big truth first and then what you’re
     
    27
     
1   trying to do. Does that make sense to you? I’m trying to get you more
2   honest about here, because I think -- I understand about wanting to feel
3   better. I really want you to know that. And I also understand that you don’t
4   want everybody to know your business about how you feel. I understand
5   that, too, because you might not even be sure that all, that everybody here is
6   safe yet. But you need to take a risk to be more honest that you’re pretty
7   miserable when you are. And you don’t have to tell people why, you know,
8   the nursing staff and so on.
9 ALICE: But then if I tell them I’m feeling bad, they’ll say, "Why, " And if I say, "I
10   don’t want to say," they’ll say, "That’s not fair, " because they have to say
11   why they’re feeling bad.
12 AW. DAVIS: I don’t care if they think it’s fair or not. It’s not appropriate on u...for you
13   on the unit to say, "I remember seeing my daddy get shocked and not having
14   any clothes on, and I feel terrible." Because that would really scare them,
15   wouldn’t it? So it’s okay to say, "I feel really miserable and I can’t tell you
16   why." And if you need to you can blame it on your therapist. I’m quite
17   okay with that. You can say, "What I’m feeling bad about is so nasty that
18   my therapist says that I shouldn’t talk about it in groups. So all I can say is
19   I’m feeling really bad. And I’m trying to be more honest with you guys."
20   Hasn’t that felt very fake to you about yourself?
21 Alice Well, I did express my feelings once in group.
     
    28
     
1 AW. DAVIS: You have several times. A couple of times you’ve expressed some real
2   feelings of anger and stuff and I’ve noticed that stuff in the chart, too. But a
3   couple of times after weeks and weeks and weeks isn’t many, is it? And
4   haven’t you felt a little fake about that, the way -- I was going to say the way
5   you feel fake at cult meetings, when you have your feelings, but you don’t
6   really have your memories of cult meetings. It’s the others that have those.
7   It’s your job, Alice, it’s been your job to look like a normal kid, hasn’t it?
8   To look like a normal, happy, bright, compliant good kid the whole time.
9   That’s been your job. That’s a very limiting job because it doesn’t allow you
10   to have the anger and the sad feelings and to be a real human being. So it’s
11   very limiting. I think it’s a very hard job being cheerful all the time. There
12   was a girl in a book when I was a little girl. Her name was Pollyanna, and
13   she always had to have a cheerful, good thing to say about stuff, you know
14   If there weren’t enough cookies to go around, she would be the one that
15   would cheerfully say, "Oh, that’s all right. I wasn’t hungry anyway. I’m
16   enjoying you having your cookie." You know, she would think of
17   something cheerful and wonderful to say about the worst stuff. And there
18   were people that liked their kids to be like that. But I think it was a very
19   nasty kind of way to be because it was really fake. Because I know she
20   really wanted to say, "I want a cookie, too. and that’s not fair, and I’m mad."
21   Okay. So the rest of you folks, you still better be present in therapy because
     
    29
     
    Pages 30 & 31 are missing.
     
1 ALICE: I think they already started.
2 AW. DAVIS: Yep.
3   (End of session 5-1-92)
4   REST OF TAPE NOT TRANSCRIBED
     
    32
     

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