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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #321, Side A & B - Date: 4/22/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

DR. PETERSON: Dr. Judith Peterson, PhD.

DR. SEWARD: Dr. Richard Seward

DR. JOHNSON: Dr. Johnson

BW. TAYLOR: Patricia Taylor

S. DAVIS: Sylvia Davis

BW. SMITH: Carol Smith

B.A.: Bill A. Green

BRENDA: Brenda Green

(UI) Unintelligible


    (Beginning of Side A)
1 DR. PETERSON: (UI).
2 BW. DAVIS: B.A. is waiting for you (inaudible).
3 B.A.: I am prepared to send the following telegram if I am not satisfied. I, Bill
4   T. Green, Jr. request that the following be removed from my insurance
5   coverage starting 4-23-92. Brenda Green, wife, Carol Smith, child --
6   stepchild, Alice Brown, stepchild. Signed by myself. To Brookfield,
7   Chicago, Illinois. First of all, has the confidentiality papers been signed?
8 BRENDA: No.
9 B.A.: Can we get that done right now so that will be legal or whatever?
10 BRENDA: Is it necessary that that be done with me in the room, I mean
11 DR. SEWARD: I -- I don't know what you're talking about.
     
    1
     
1 BRENDA: To um--
2 B.A.: Yes, it is necessary.
3 BRENDA: - To release information to B.A. on myself and the girls.
4 DR. SEWARD: Sure. Uh, Carol needs to sign for herself, she's 16.
5 BRENDA: Okay.
6 BW. DAVIS: Would you like me to get a release of information form?
7 DR. SEWARD: Uh-huh.
8 B.A.: Thank you.
9 BRENDA: I mean, I'm --
10 DR. PETERSON: Did you want him to read your letter? Did he have a chance to do that?
11 BRENDA: No, he hasn't read it yet. -
12 DR. PETERSON: Oh.
13 BRENDA: Would you like to read it?
14 B.A.: I would. First prepare to - prefer to go ahead and finish this and then -
15   okay?
16 BRENDA: Okay.
17 BW. SMITH: Well, if Sylvia's going out to get (UT) to sign it, can you --
18 B.A.: Sure.
19 BW. SMITH: -- could you go on?
     
    2
     
1 B.A.: Well, I feel that all confidentiality should be removed, as I have already
2   heard about the worst things that has happened through Brenda. Have uh --
3   what about signing a form for me to see Alice? Has that been done?
4 BRENDA: No.
5 B.A.: Will it be done?
6 BRENDA: I--
7 DR. SEWARD: We need to address that as we go along.
8 BRENDA: Yeah.
9 B.A.: Well, let's address it right now if we could.
10 DR. SEWARD: We have a lot of things we need to address before we get to that one.
11 B.A.: If I have no legal rights, as far as confidentiality, then why are you using me
12   to pay the bills? Why don't you go after the legal parties and use their
13   insurance so I don't lose my job? As it stands right now, there is no way the
14   company is going to continue to pay out $150,000 a month until you're
15   ready to release them. I'll be lucky to have my job 30 days. If it goes that
16   long, I'll be lucky. What's going to happen then when I lose my job? Can
17   somebody answer that? What's the form of treatment will you use then?
18   Can somebody help me there?
19 BW. SMITH: You know, B.A., we probably need to check it with your insurance
20   company, and basically that is for uh, the utilization review person to do,
21   but what happens is that, yes, they could fire you or yes, you could lose the
     
    3
     
1   job and, you know, and then the insurance, you would lose your insurance,
2   but if-- if somebody is presently hospitalized, whether it's psychiatric or
3   medically, okay, until they get discharged, the insurance company is
4   usually obligated to cover it until they are discharged. Now, that's just a
5   generic -- when I talked to uh, Barbara Jones, -- that's just a generic standard.
6   What basically has to be done to really get technical and find that out is
7   then, the U.R. person has to call the people at Brookfield or wherever the
8   home office is to find that out.
9 DR. PETERSON: Aren't they also under COBRA?
10 BW. SMITH: Pardon?
11 DR. PETERSON: (UI).
12 B.A.: if you want to pay $800 a month. I'm already paying $200 on a group. And
13   I know-
14 DR. SEWARD: I think the point, it may not be legal for them to fire you.
15 BW. SMITH: To fire you-to do-yeah.
16 DR PETERSON: Right.
17 DR SEWARD: It may not be legal for them to do that.
18 B.A.: Unh-unh.
19 BW. TAYLOR: It may be a big -
20 B.A.: A 10 billion - a 10 billion dollar corporation, anything's legal.
21 BW. TAYLOR: No, you have legal rights.
     
    4
     
I DR. PETERSON: No, actually, that's not true.
2 B.A.: Come on Dr., how am I going to fight a corporation -- worldwide
3   corporation that's gonna --
4 DR. PETERSON: (UT) --
5 B.A.: -- and all they gotta do is say that sales are not up to par, therefore, we had
6   to let him go. That's all they've got say.
7 DR. SEWARD: Not after they've already told you what they've told you.
8 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh.
9 BW. TAYLOR: Yeah.
10 DR. PETERSON: And we're your witnesses.
11 B.A.: And that's all they have to do, you know?
12 DR. PETERSON: I'm not sure that you're hearing us.
13 B.A.: I think I am but I-
14 DR. PETERSON: What are you hearing?
15 B.A.: I'm hearing that they can't do it, but --
16 BW. TAYLOR: They can try but you do have legal rights and we're your witnesses in the fact
17   that--
18   And what about court? I mean, by the time it goes through court, are you
19   talking 20 years?
20 DR. PETERSON: It's probably not worth it to them to fight it.
21 BW. TAYLOR: No, it isn't.
     
    5
     
1 DR. PETERSON: It's easier for them to go on and pay the medical bills.
2 B.A.: Well --
3 BW. DAVIS: Same as they would for somebody not working for them. They've had these
4   kind of things --
5 BW TAYLOR Yeah.
6 BW. DAVIS -- before. They can't be that quite a big a company and not have this all over
7   the country.
8 DR. PETERSON: They'd like to threaten you and they'd like you to believe it and they'd like to
9   bully you.
10   Why not do something now to make sure that I keep my job and the insurance
11   will stay in force and treatment can continue, if necessary? What's wrong with
12   --
13 BW. SMITH: --
14 DR. SEWARD: All that's in Brenda's letter.
15 DR. PETERSON: Maybe you ought to read her letter.
16 DR. SEWARD: Sylvia, would you see if someone can get Carol to sign a release?
17 BW. DAVIS: Yes.
18 DR PETERSON: Sylvia, (UT).
19 BW. DAVIS: Great. May I tell her why?
20 DR. SEWARD: So I can--
21 BW. DAVIS: In a sentence?
     
    6
     
1 DR. SEWARD: -- talk to her step dad.
2 BW. DAVIS: Pardon?
3 DR. SEWARD: So I can talk to her step dad.
4 DAVIS: Okay.
5 DR. SEWARD. (UT).
6 B.A.: What proof do you have that their lives are in danger. may I ask that?
7 BRENDA: 1 gave you a little piece of that information when we were sitting outside
8   talking.
9 B.A.: Proof What's guaranteeing me that ya'lls alters are --
10 BRENDA: I don't -
11 B.A.: --not lying-
12 BRENDA: - have anything written in stone, no.
13 B.A.: Or not playing games? They do lie. They do play games. Dr. Peterson told me
14   that.
15 BRENDA: But they're not doing that any more.
16 B.A.: How do you know?
17 BRENDA: Because I know.
18 B.A.: Well, go more into that. (Pause) Gonna sue me for damage?
19 BRENDA: Just read the letter, okay?
20 B.A.: What do you mean by that?
21 BRENDA: Would you read the letter?
     
    7
     
1 B.A. You can't sue me for damage. You won't get nothing. (Pause) How can the
2   cult put anything on me?
3 BRENDA: They can do it, they can do it.
4 B.A.: How? Who is the cult? A ghost?
5 BRENDA: I wish.
6 B.A.: That's all I hear is the cult but I want to hear names. (Pause) Get back to the
7   question why not do something now? What about day treatment, instead of
8   inpatient treatment? To show the company that at least we're trying to save
9   them money instead of going into their budget.
10 BW. SMITH: B.A., I have a -- a counterproposal that I told you about. I mean, like if we
11   need to demonstrate to the company that we're trying to save them money,
12   because it's still kind of unclear how safe or unsafe the situation is. if we got
13   everybody on an RTS status, which means a flat per diem, per day, would that
14   help?
15 B.A.: I doubt it. I mean what's the difference between-
16 BW.SMITH: Well-
17 B.A.: -- uh, $5,000 and $4,000?
18 BW.SMITH: Well--
19 DR.PETERSON: It's about half as much.
     
    8
     
1 BW. SMITH: Well, I -- I think we need to look. We could go over to the business office and
2   check, but an RTS rate, I know, for here -- I don't know what it is on the
3   adolescent unit, but for here, it's $750 a day. So no matter --
4 B.A.: Per person.
5 BW. SMITH: -- how many -- right. How many groups Brenda attends -- basically right now,
6   there's a charge for every group. Okay, a group can run anywhere from $120
7   to $197. Okay? No matter how many she attends, the room, the board, the
8   whole bit, it's all in the package deal of $750, so that where normal charges
9   could run $1 100 a day, you're at least saving somewhere between $300 and
10   $500. That may help to counterbalance the uh -- or the -- show -- display the
11   effort that we're making a -- to try to save the --
12 B.A.: Well, why can't we be covering -- well, I guess --
13 BW. SMITH: But, you don't -- but that's my counterproposal to help you out there.
14 B.A.: Well, we can try it but I doubt it -- I mean come on, you're still talking tens of
15   thousands of dollars a month. You bring it down from $150 to $100. You're
16   effecting the big guys credit -- and then um, per -- retirement fund and all that
17   stuff. Why is my wife scared to death to hold me or even to talk to me or to
18   see me? She wasn't like this before she came in here.
19 BRENDA: Because of the possibility of signaling going on. You have been told this not
20   once, but many times.
21   What proof do you have there is signaling going on?
     
    9
     
1 BRENDA: I've been told that it's going on.
2 B.A.: From who?
3 BRENDA: From folks inside.
4 B.A.: Can I talk with the folks?
5 BRENDA: What good would that do for you to the talk to them?
6 B.A.: I don't know. Can I, or they -- they don't want to talk with me?
7 DR. PETERSON: B.A., part of figuring that out though, is figuring out what's happening with you
8   and also as Brenda goes on further with her treatment, then those parts are
9   gonna be able to be more and more resilient and more and more able to not be
10   affected by--
11 B.A.: Well how much --
12 DR. PETERSON: - being with you or touching -
13 B.A.: - time are we talking about? This is getting ridiculous. This -- they've been
14   in here 70 days today. They've been in treatment a year and two months
15   before they came in here. They were in the hospital three weeks. Carol
16   was in there about two and a half months before they came in here. Time is
17   vital to me. Time is - you're milking a cow and the cow is gonna go dry. It
18   says unlimited lifetime benefits, but -
19 DR. PETERSON: What's the company -
20 B.A.: - you're milking the cow.
21 DR. PETERSON: - What's the company telling you? They putting a lot of pressure on you?
     
    10
     
1 B.A.: It's coming down vaguely.
2 DR. PETERSON: You're getting threatened.
3 B.A.: I'm being -- I've been told that they're not gonna pay anymore. They've already
4   cut out Sylvia's charges.
5 DR. PETERSON: I'm sure that they're threatening you.
6 B.A.: No, they're not threatening me. They -- it's coming down very vaguely. That
7   it's -- I've just been told through the grapevine.
8 DR. PETERSON: The reviewers -- the reviewers are the ones the doctors talk to. They're the
9   ones that determine whether or not Brenda and the children are in the hospital,
10   not people that run the company. They pay a --
11 DR. JOHNSON: I talk to a --
12 DR. PETERSON: -- review company --
13 DR. JOHNSON: -- doctor every week, B.A.
14 B.A.: I realize that.
15 DR. JOHNSON: Yeah. And he's the one that determines --
16 B.A.: However, when the company says "Your production is not up good enough to
17   justify spending $300,000 or $150,000 a month," they're not gonna use up,
18   they're just gonna say, "Well, you know, your production is not up good
19   enough, therefore, we're gonna have to let you go. It would be better if you
20   find another job." Or they can starve me out by saying, "You go strictly on new
21   sales, no more renewal cards to run," which 5O to 75 percent of my income
     
    11
     
1   arrives from there. About 30 to 40 percent of my income comes off strictly
2   new sales and if they cut out the renewal cards, they starve you out. That's
3   what -- and I've heard it done several times to people that they want to get rid
4   of. They just starve them out by saying, "Go sell." You can't live on a $100 a
5   week or $200 a week. So, like I said, they -they got ways of getting me out of
6   there if they want to. I mean, you've seen that up in Georgia when they starved
7   me out -- tried to. You remember that, don't you?
8 BRENDA: Yeah.
9 B.A.: You saw it here in Houston, didn't you? DidÖ am I speaking the truth?
10 BRENDA: Well, I think a lot of that's got to do with who your uh --
11 B.A.: Am I speaking the truth?
12 BRENDA: Yes, you are, but I also think that there is a lot of it that has to do with who
13   your manager is.
14 B.A.: Well--
15 DR. SEWARD: Brenda, Brenda, are you speaking the truth? Are the parts inside speaking the truth
16   when you tell what's gonna happen and what has happened in the cult?
17 BRENDA: Yes.
18 B.A.: Far as that -- what's gonna keep Larry ---- Larry tried it for the last two or three
19   months, since October. He tried starving me out.
20 DR. SEWARD: Carol has also been shocked horribly in those three months, too. Tortured.
21   So has Alice.
     
    12
     
1   When?
2 DR. SEWARD: Christmas Eve.
3 B.A. Christmas Eve?
4 DR. SEWARD: Uh-huh.
5 B.A.: By who?
6 DR. SEWARD: Do you know, Brenda?
7 BRENDA: By someone in my system.
8 B.A.: How?
9 BRENDA: Um, with bands. Sometimes it was done at home. Sometimes it was done
10   somewhere else.
11 B.A.: How come I didn't hear them?
12 DR. SEWARD: Alice tells me that she begged you once to not have to go to one of the
13   meetings and you told her that she had to go.
14 B.A.: Well, how come I didn't hear them?
15 BRENDA: You didn't hear?
16 B.A.: No.
17 DR PETERSON: Did you hear them, Brenda?
18 BRENDA: Did I hear what?
19 DR PETERSON: Did you hear the children?
20 BRENDA: Yeah.
21 DR PETERSON: What did they sound like?
     
    13
     
1 BRENDA: It was horrible.
2 DR. PETERSON: Did they make a lot of sound?
3 B.A.: What did you do to keep me from hearing them?
4 BRENDA: You were tranced out.
5 B.A.: How?
6 BRENDA: I have parts in my system that were programmed to do that.
7 B.A.: How?
8 BRENDA: You were put in a trance.
9 B.A.: How?
10 BRENDA: You start the same way you start working with hypnosis, with relaxation
11   techniques.
12 B.A.: You didn't do no relaxation techniques on me.
13 BRENDA: Yes, I did. You just don't remember it.
14 B.A.: How?
15 BRENDA: It just is done.
16 B.A.: Can you tell me how?
17 BRENDA: I have already told you.
18 B.A.: No, you're talking in circles.
19 BRENDA: No, I am not talking in circles.
20 DR. PETERSON: It needs to be witnessed, Sylvia.
21 B.A.: I would like to have --
     
    14
     
1 DAVIS: (UI) I thought she had to sign it.
2 B.A.: -- exact -- I said I came in here for hard information, the cards turned over,
3   face up, on the table.
4 DR. SEWARD: Then Mr. Green, can you tell us how you know the company's gonna fire
5   you? Do you have proof?
6 B.A.: Nope. No proof
7 DR. SEWARD: However we need to have all the cards turned up.
8 B.A.: I'm turning. That's the card.
9 DR. SEWARD: And she's telling you what's happened, too.
10 B.A.: Then tell me how did you trance, or whatever you call it, me out?
11 BRENDA: You were put in a trance.
12 B.A.: How?
13 BRENDA: Just like when you go into hypnosis.
14 B.A.: How did you get me to whatever?
15 DR. PETERSON: B.A., that is one of the reasons why we wanted you to be able to go up and
16   get a really good assessment.
17 UT.: Well, she could also be able to tell me.
18 DR. PETERSON: Well, what I'm saying though is, besides what she can tell you, it's important
19   that you be a part of a assessment with the whole family because this is --
20   this is a real serious problem and we think things have happened to you, too.
     
    15
     
1 B.A. What?
2 DR. PETERSON: We've been through this before. That's why you and I had a long, long talk
3   before you left for Austin, and I was beginning to make the arrangements for-
4   you to go to Chicago.
5 B.A.: However, can't you tell me, what did you do, exactly, to put me to sleep or
6   whatever you did to me? Step by step, please.
7 BRENDA: There are parts in my system that have been programmed to do what they
8   did.
9 B.A.: You told me that.
10 BRENDA: They sometimes would use drugs. They would drug your drink. your tea or
11   whatever, your coffee.
12 B.A.: Where would you get the drugs from?
13 BRENDA: It's not hard to get drugs from the cult.
14 B.A.: Who would give them to you?
15 BRENDA: Someone from the cult.
16 B.A.: But where, work? Or they come to the house and just do it?
17 BRENDA: Sometimes it would be from people at work.
18 B.A.: Who at work?
19 DR. SEWARD: Brenda, um, can anyone tell your husband what will happen to you if you give
20   names?
21 BRENDA: I'll be killed.
     
    16
     
1 DR. PETERSON: Are you afraid right now to give him names?
2 B.A.: Why? I'm not gonna do nothing. Who's gonna kill you?
3 BRENDA: Until we know for sure, because you see, I have this feeling and I'm laying
4   my cards on the table --
5 B.A.: Uh-huh.
6 BRENDA: -- to you.. I have this feeling that someone has gotten to you.
7 B.A.: I have a feeling that you're making it all up.
8 DR. PETERSON: This is for Cathy to sign (UT) --
9 B.A.: I'm sorry. All of this is made up. It's a ghost.
10 BRENDA: No, it's not made up --
II . B.A.: It's a fairy tale--
12 BRENDA: --It's not a ghost--
13 B.A.: -- or brain wash or something.
14 DR. PETERSON: I'm sorry, Brenda. Could you sign right there?
15 BRENDA: On this line?
16 B.A.: Because you won't give me any information.
17 DR. PETERSON: B.A. -
18 B.A.: You--
19 DR. PETERSON: -- right now, let me - can I say something?
20 B.A.: But I was supposed to -
21 DR. PETERSON: Can -
     
    17
     
1 B.A.: -- get hard --
2 DR. PETERSON: --Can--
3 B.A.: -- information on the table.
4 DR. PETERSON: Okay. Let me -- let me -- let me just give you some feedback. If I had
5   something that was real, real secret and dangerous right now to tell you, like
6   the name of somebody or the location of somebody or -- or business that
7   was a real problem that had given, say if I were in a cult, given me drugs or
8   -- or done whatever, then right now, with especially what's happened over
9   the last 24 hours, where you've been so upset, I would be so concerned that
10   you wouldn't keep my secret. Wait, hear me. I would be so worried
11   because I wouldn't know and then I'd be afraid that I would be hurt or killed
12   or the girls would be, because you've been flying off the handle and you've
13   admitted that when you came in today, you lost your temper a lot yesterday,
14   and what if you went to one of those places and lost your temper?
15 B.A.: I never go to no place -
16 DR.PETERSON: But-but-but-
17 B.A.: - and I've never been to no place.
18 DR PETERSON: But B.A., you've never known where to go and why - why today when
19   you're very upset why today would Brenda or anybody say, "Well, this is -
20   this is an exact piece of information" when right now, we're saying, "Let's
     
    18
     
1   learn together and get some understanding together," and for you to be able
2   to -- to get to a spot where you can hear more specific information.
3 B.A.: You're hood winking me.
4 DR. PETERSON: Huh?
5 B.A.: You're hood winking me. Your going around -- vague, your being very
6   vague. You're being - I asked to come in here, I believe with Carol, when I
7   asked for hard information.
8 BRENDA: You are being given hard information.
9 B.A.: You are not giving me hard information. You're giving me bits and pieces.
10   You're playing like a rabbit -
11 BRENDA: I am giving you information as hard as I can give.
12 B.A.: I want harder information. I don't care how much it hurts me. I want the
13   cards on the table. Sylvia asked me yesterday, "Am I man enough to take
14   it?" Yes, I am. I'm ready to have the cards on the table and I would like to
15   see them open.
16 DR PETERSON: But you were just told that you were drugged.
17 B.A.: I don't believe it.
18 DR PETERSON: So when you're given hard information, like I -- I mean if I -
19 B.A.: Prove it.
20 DR PETERSON: -If I was-
21 B.A.: Where did you get the drugs from?
     
    19
     
1 BRENDA: You can get the drugs from the cult very easily.
2 B.A.: The cult, again.
3 BRENDA: I am not gonna name names.
4 B.A.: Well, then that's not good enough.
5 BRENDA: In the first place, the names would do you no good because I only know the
6   cult names and they are not their real names. I had -- I had a cult name,
7   myself
8 B.A.: What's your cult name? Then you didn't have one.
9 DR PETERSON: So you don't believe her?
10 B.A.: No, I don't. She's not giving me - she's lying to me.
11 DR PETERSON: Why would she lie?
12 BRENDA: Why would I lie?
13 B.A.: Why are you in here?
14 BRENDA: To break away from the cult.
15 B.A.: Why are you - what's - why are you so convinced you was ever in the
16   cult?
17 BRENDA: Because I am convinced that I - that I was. There is evidence that I was in
18   the cult.
19 B.A.: What evidence, please?
20 BRENDA: What about the dead baby?
21 B.A.: That was a long time ago. We're talking about now.
     
    20
     
1 BRENDA: But it doesn't just stop. Believe me, it doesn't just stop. It doesn't --
2 B.A.: Why?
3 BRENDA: -- work that way. Because it doesn't.
4 B.A.: You told me it did.
5 BRENDA: Because that's what I believed.
6 DR. PETERSON: Could you bring out the children at the high school (UT)?
7 BW. DAVIS: That's hard facts.
8 DR SEWARD: Carol was in a group of six 6 people in Jersey Village High School.
9   Three of them are now dead.
10 DR. PETERSON: The last one died this last Sunday.
11 B.A.: It wasn't in the news.
12 DR PETERSON: (UT)-.
13 DR SEWARD: It was suicide.
14 DR PETERSON: High school students.
15 BW. DAVIS: Who were in the cult.
16 DR SEWARD: Who were - who were - who were Carol's friends.
17 DR PETERSON: Who went to that high school - and three are dead.
18 DR SEWARD: That's 50 percent. You know about two of them.
19 BA.: I do?
20 DR SEWARD: Uh-huh.
21 B.A.: How?
     
    21
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Carol told you. She asked you to go to the funeral and you wouldn't let
2   her go.
3 B.A.: Are you talking about the band director?
4 DR. SEWARD: The kids.
5 BRENDA: The kids.
6 B.A.: She went to the funeral of the kids.
7 BRENDA: Remember the one the boy that was killed down at Galveston?
8 B.A.: Yeah.
9 DR SEWARD: That's - that -- that was one of the three. The third one was this Sunday..
10 B.A.: Who was the second one?
11 DR SEWARD: Ted.
12 B.A.: Who?
13 DR SEWARD: Ted.
14 B.A.: Who's that?
15 BRENDA: He was one of her friends from school.
16 DR. SEWARD: Furthermore, Carol knows the kid who tried to stab that girl right down
17   the street here. The one that came from Georgia that was in the newspaper.
18 B.A.: Hum.
19 DR SEWARD: She knows him. She saw him at cult meetings. She called him a visitor.
20   And it's in the newspaper - he's satanic. Scott May is his name.
     
    22
     
1 BRENDA: Hum. See, we didn't -- you -- we didn't get into that names. I tried to take
2   it off but I (UI).
3 DR PETERSON: Uh-huh.
4 BRENDA: And I-that was-
5 DR. JOHNSON: You heard -- you heard about that, didn't you? About the kid, came here
6   from Georgia recently, tried to kill somebody?
7 B.A.: Yeah, yeah.
8 DR SEWARD: Scott May is his name. You could go back and -
9 B.A.: Went back and uh, didn't he admit to some killings in Georgia or
10   something?
11 DR. JOHNSON: Yes.
12 BRENDA: Yes.
13 B.A.: Yeah. Okay.
14 DR. SEWARD: And he said he was sorry this girl lived.
15 B.A.: Yeah.
16 DR PETERSON: Carol -
17 DR SEWARD: Carol knows him.
18 B.A.: From where? The cult?
19 BRENDA: From the cult.
20 BW. DAVIS: Uh-huh.
21 BRENDA: I can also tell you something else. Our former landlord in Georgia was cult.
     
    23
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Would you like to tell us anything, Brenda, about Dr. Gee?
2 BRENDA: Um, I have gotten information in the last day or two that he was also cult.
3 B.A.: Who?
4 BRENDA: Andrew Gee, up in Georgia. There are clergymen that are cult. There are
5   doctors and lawyers and psychiatrists and therapists that are cult.
6 B.A.: Carol told me that two months ago.
7 BRENDA: Well, Carol was telling the truth. My system verified it.
8 DR. JOHNSON: B.A., are you concerned about Carol's life?
9 B.A.: I'm concerned about all their lives.
10 DR. JOHNSON: Okay. When -- when they say that of six friends, three are now dead in a
11   short period of time, that would scare the hell out of me as a father.
12 BRENDA: It scares the hell out of me, too.
13 DR. SEWARD: It scares the hell out of Carol, too.
14 BRENDA: Dear God.
15 B.A.: Well, one was run over.
16 DR PETERSON: Uh-huh.
17 BA.: (UI)in an act of drunk driving-
18 DR SEWARD: Two of them were - two of them were.
19 BRENDA: It was not an accident.
20 DR SEWARD: And one committed suicide on Easter, which is a sacrifice day to the cult.
21 DR PETERSON: I'll be back in just a minute. Excuse me.
     
    24
     
1 BRENDA: There is so much I don't know. It's scary. I'm just beginning to find out.
2   And you thought you had heard the most horrible. You haven't heard the
3   most horrible. Because I've --
4 B.A.: Can't be nothing worse than this.
5 BRENDA: I've had memories. Other memories that are far worse than the memories
6   that I had before I came in here. Of things that I have done to my own
7   children.
8 B.A.: Where was I?
9 BRENDA: You were either drugged or it was done somewhere else. Not at home.
10 B.A.: What did you do to your own children?
11 BRENDA: I shocked them or tortured them.
12 B.A.: How did you --
13 BRENDA: I put them --
14 B.A.: -- shock them?
15 BRENDA: -- in cages, I put them in boxes. When they were little tiny babies, they were
16   almost drowned. Didn't you ever wonder why they were always so terrified
17   of the water? They were put down in dark holes and things were thrown
18   down on top of them, like bugs and snakes and dead animals. They got
19   shocked.
20 DR. SEWARD: Do you know why? You got that -- intercepted that letter from the Gladney
21   Home last fall because Carol had been impregnated at a meeting.
     
    25
     
1 BRENDA: Uh-huh.
2 B.A.: And?
3 BRENDA: The pregnancy was terminated.
4 B.A.: By who? Carol --
5 BRENDA: She had a cult abortion. She was picked up at the house and taken back to
6   the house. I knew nothing about it.
7 B.A.: So how are you gonna put an end to all of this? Because --
8 BRENDA: By doing just what we're doing now.
9 B.A.: How is that gonna put an end to it? What's gonna keep you safe after you
10   come out of here? Are you in here for life?
11 BRENDA: No- -
12 B.A.: Are they in here for life?
13 BRENDA: - I'm not in here for life and neither are they.
14 B.A.: Then what's gonna guarantee their safety when you leave --
15 BRENDA: We will be desensitized to triggers.
16 BA.: Big deal. If they can come get you at the house, what's the difference?
17 DR. SEWARD: Because what Brenda is talking about is that a simple signal can send her into
18   a trance, such that a part who knows what to do in the cult will come out
19   and go with them. And when she reaches the point to when those signals,
20   whatever they may be, no longer cause those cult parts to come out, then
21   she will be a lot safer.
     
    26
     
1 B.A.: How can you do that?
2 BW. TAYLOR: That's what we do here.
3 BRENDA: It's called deprogramming.
4 BW. TAYLOR: She becomes aware of how she was trained to be sensitive to those signals
5   and then through the process of abreaction, she will no longer be sensitive
6   to those signals and then eventually will be safe.
7 DR. SEWARD: Carol says you signal her.
8 B.A.: To do what?
9 DR. SEWARD: Different things. Mostly to shut up -- not talk.
10 B.A.: How? What do I do?
11 DR. SEWARD: I don't know what signals you give. We haven't gotten that far. We've been
12   working on the signals that she was trained to see from me to shut up.
13   When I do this, that's a signal for her to shut up, because she was trained in
14   the cult to (UT).
15 B.A.: Anytime anybody does that?
16 DR SEWARD: When I do it.
17 BW. TAYLOR No, him.
18 BRENDA: Just when Dr. Seward does it.
19 DR SEWARD: When I - one of my habits is to do this when I'm listening. That's a signal
20   for Carol to shut up.
21 BW. DAVIS: Not that -
     
    27
     
1 DR. SEWARD: That's why our therapy went nowhere last fall. And I didn't know that until
2   she got here.
3 B.A.: So she was trained - so evidently she was trained --
4 DR. SEWARD: Beginning in September, she was shocked regularly, specifically to keep her
5   from talking to me, and that's about the time therapy shut down.
6 BA.: What happened previously? Was they in the cult before?
7 DR. SEWARD: You'll need to ask uh, Brenda or someone else in the cult. Apparently, uh,
8   they didn't think I was much of a threat to them up until about then -
9 B.A.: Oh.
10 DR. SEWARD: -- because Carol was talking little by little.
11 BW. DAVIS: And she is afraid for her life if she leaves the hospital now. She's terrified.
12 DR SEWARD: And if she goes in day treatment, she'll be reprogrammed, if she's not killed.
13 BRENDA: We both will.
14 B.A.: Why are you so sure about being killed?
15 BRENDA: Because of the history behind the cult.
16 DR. SEWARD: Would it be safe to say, Brenda, if any part can tell B.A. - If you've ever seen
17   it happen?
18 BRENDA: Yes, I have seen it happen. I have parts that have done it. I have parts that
19   have committed murder.
20   Recently?
     
    28
     
1 BRENDA: Yes. Well, if you don't believe me, I don't know what else to tell you to
2   make you believe me. I am speaking the truth.
3 B.A.: Who is?
4 BRENDA: Brenda is.
5 B.A.: Who else?
6 BRENDA: All the other parts that are here. And they don't just let you walk away scot
7   free.
8 B.A. What about Mike Marisey, he walked away scot-free. And he was
9   much higher than whatever you were.
10 DR. SEWARD: Are you sure he's scot?
11 B.A.: Huh? -
12 DR SEWARD: Are you sure?
13 B.A.: That's what he says.
14 DR. SEWARD. Would he be honest about something like that if he wasn't scot-free?
15 B.A.: I doubt it.
16 BRENDA: He also-
17 DR SEWARD: Is it more likely that a person would say, "I'm free" and not be free, or is it
18   more likely a person would say, "I'm not free," and be free? What's more
19   likely?
20 B.A.: The last one, yeah.
21 DR SEWARD: It's more likely for a person to say, "I'm not free" and be free.
     
    29
     
1 B.A.: I guess so because he still has a scare. He's scared of being attacked.
2 DR. SEWARD: Well, actually, it works the other way around. A person is more likely to lie
3   about being in the cult than lie about being out of it.
4 BW. DAVIS: I know this is an awful lot to absorb at this time. Most people are more
5   familiar just from the literature about organized crime, and so on. Most
6   everybody knows if you were a member of the Mafia and then you decide to
7   leave the Mafia you don't really get to go out, except in a cement, you know,
8   overshoes and so on. It's the same kind of thing with the cult. Unless it's
9   done very, very thoroughly and very carefully.
10 DR. SEWARD: You can get out of the Mafia with the witness protection program.
11 B.A.: - Why can't you do that here?
12 DR. SEWARD: Because there's no such thing with cult treatment. You have to have
13   treatment and a safe place to get out of the cult.
14 DR. PETERSON: And then they make really good plans for discharge. That are really safe.
15 BW. TAYLOR: Uh-huh.
16 BRENDA: And it has to be very thoroughly planned. And all details have to be worked
17   out for safety. It's not something that you can just do in 24 hours. And it
18   takes a lot of hard work, too.
19 B.A.: What are we talking about? Time wise?
20 DR. SEWARD: Several months.
21 B.A.: I've heard that from day one; since December of 1990.
     
    30
     
1 DR. SEWARD: If you need to know, Dr. Johnson may be in a better position um, to talk
2   about how Brenda's work has gone, week by week.
3 B.A.: What about Alice's and Carol?
4 DR. SEWARD: Carol is at a point to where she can't go forward until she knows that
5   she's gonna be safe and whether C.P.S. is going to allow her to stay safe, no
6   matter what.
7 B.A.: How is C.P.S. gonna allow her to stay safe?
8 DR. SEWARD: To assure her that she does not have to come back home until she is safe.
9 B.A.: How long has she been in standstill?
10 DR. SEWARD: She hasn't been at standstill. It's just been kind of slow lately, except for the
11.   fact that she's made a lot of progress in getting the programming about me
12   behind her.
13 BRENDA: (Inaudible).
14 DR SEWARD: Alice is only in, what would you say, Sylvia, uh, the past three, four weeks,
15   been able to really start moving forward?
16 BW. DAVIS: Uh-huh.
17 BW. TAYLOR Uh-huh.
18 DR SEWARD: Because she's been so terrified of even having a feeling. So within the last
19   week or so, she's been able to begin to act like a 13-year-old and have
20   feelings, because she's afraid we're gonna torture her because that's all she's
21   known.
     
    31
     
1 B.A.: What about Brenda?
2 DR. JOHNSON: Well, let me ask you a question. Do you think your family is in danger?
3 B.A.: I don't know what to think anymore.
4 DR. JOHNSON: Well, you're having some feelings --
5 B.A.: I'm having feelings that --
6 DR. JOHNSON: You've got to be having some impressions right now, B.A.
7 B.A.: I get information from that side, I get information from this side. One side
8   says this is a bunch of b.s. It's - there's no such thing. There's no way it
9   can happen. Another side says, "Yes, it does happen. It does - it is true."
10   One side says, "Well, how can you know?" This side says, "I can't give you
11   the information." This one says, "Prove it." I can't prove it. What am to
12   think?
13 DR. JOHNSON: All I can tell you is, if I were in your shoes, I know what I would think.
14   When I hear that three of my daughters' six friends are dead in a short
15   period of time, and I know what I would do at that point. I would assume
16   that there's danger. I'd try to listen to the experts, not people on the outside
17   that don't know a damn thing about it. These people spent years learning
18   this.
19 B.A.: I realize that.
20 DR PETERSON: But I think sometimes that that gets forgotten that it's all equalized that uh,
21   it's like if you had money to invest that you're asking your banker. You're
     
    32
     
1   asking the grocery store clerk down the street and you're asking somebody
2   that once in a while invests their money a little bit and then you're making it
3   all equal. And if you made it all equal in your investing money, well, you
4   would think that was pretty dumb because you would want to talk to the
5   people who knew the most about investing money. And when it comes to
6   treatment of this special kind, then it seems to me that you ought to be
7   talking to and listening to the people in the country that know the most
8   about this. I don't think the people that you work with know much about it.
9   Okay, my husband doesn't know anything about it. You know, he doesn't
10   work as a psychologist.
11 B.A.: Well--
12 DR. SEWARD: Now, Mr. Green, the reason --
13 DR. PETERSON: Thank you.
14 DR. SEWARD: -- um, I decided to work with Dr. Peterson, is that I happened to find out
15   that throughout the country there may be five or six people who really know
16   what they're doing and that may even be being generous. I don't know, and
17   she's one of them.
18 B.A.: How much longer is this staying away is gonna have to -- are you saying
19   after I be assessed or whatever?
20 DR. SEWARD: I keep talking and, Dr. Johnson, I keep -- I keep (inaudible) interfering your
21   relationship with Brenda, and I really want to apologize to you for that. I
     
    33
     
1   guess I'm kind of doing it because I've known the family uh, for over a year.
2   Um, I don't know -- if you want to field that question, I'll be glad to.
3 DR. JOHNSON: What's the question, B.A.?
4 B.A.: This not seeing, not being able to visit like most husbands visit. I guess they
5   do, I don't know. I never saw any of them up here. I don't know if it's their
6   own will or doctor's orders or what. Why can't we have normal visitation?
7   When can that start?
8 DR. JOHNSON: All right. I tell you what I would very much like for you to do. I would
9   very much like for you to get the assessment done so that you can learn
10   more about what this thing really is. It's real, it exists, it's alive right now.
11 B.A.: Can we do it tomorrow? I heard Deidra ask you if you could set it up
12   tomorrow.
13 DR. SEWARD: Um, I asked Dr. Peterson, who knows Dr. Cheskie a whole lot better than I
14   do, and the answer I got was that he has a real tight schedule, so it's
15   probably not likely.
16 B.A.: This is postponing. I feel like -- I mean --
17 DR. SEWARD: It's reality.
18 BRENDA: It's reality.
19 B.A.: It's been reality for six weeks.
20 DR. PETERSON: B.A. --
21   (End of Side A)
     
    34
     
1   (Beginning of Side B)
2 DR. PETERSON: -- Totally different. Uh, they have worked with other families and other
3   husbands. You get a real education if you were able to come back with that
4   knowledge and I think it would really help a lot and I think that that
5   assessment would really make a difference for you. I really do. Now, we
6   have some people we know, too, that are very good that are in Austin, and
7   that's a possibility also. Uh, the people in Chicago are much more
8   experienced. Again, it goes to, you know -- and I'd rather have you have
9   the Cadillac than the uh, the Honda. I don't know how to frame that, but my
10   concern would be that -- that you have a very, very serious problem. On a
11   zero to 10, your family problem is a 10, if that will help you. It's not a one
12   or a two, it's a 10. And if it's 10, then why not get the very best help? Why
13   not figure this out to get the very best answers the quickest?
14 B.A.: How long will it take to set that up?
15 DR. PETERSON: Well, what I had told you before was that I was going to find out about that.
16   And I have to talk to Dr. Braun and I don't know how long that that will
17   take. I don't know what his schedule's like, but what I did find was that that
18   was certainly something uh, very possible. He was very interested. He
19   would take your case um, and the next thing was to go ahead and arrange it,
20   and then I was called out of town and you were away also.
21   Yeah, I was.
     
    35
     
1 DR. PETERSON: And so I was gonna do that and I've already called Dr. Braun's office again
2   and I had done that on Monday, and I haven't gotten a call back yet from
3   him.
4 DR. JOHNSON: So it's possible to maybe find out this week?
5 DR. PETERSON: Right.
6 B.A.: Can't I at least --
7 DR. JOHNSON: And then, B.A., it's a two-and-a-half-hour flight up there. I'd go do it and
8   get it over with and come back and then we can talk about this other stuff.
9 B.A.: This not knowing, this not being able to see my wife -- talk to my wife --
10 DR. JOHNSON: Okay, look, look, look -- see, it's possible, and you would disagree,
11   probably. It's possible there is a part of you that's been programmed to
12   program something to your wife.
13 B.A.: Now, now look --
14 DR. JOHNSON: You understand what I'm saying?
15 B.A.: I hear you. I hear you, but --
16 DR. PETERSON: It's the same way that Dr. Seward --
17 DR. SEWARD: But -- but let me -- let me point out something -- it -- since Brenda has told
18   you not to come around --
19 DR. PETERSON: She's made more and more progress --
20 DR. SEWARD: -- that's she begun to make her progress.
     
    36
     
1 DR. PETERSON: She has been making jumps in getting better -- wonderful jumps. I mean, in
2   the week I was gone, I couldn't believe the change.
3 B.A.: Are we talking about 10 years of this?
4 BW. TAYLOR: No.
5 B.A.: Are we talking about a year? We talking about six months, five months,
6   three months?
7 DR. JOHNSON: This is what we're talking about.. We're talking about you getting assessed
8   so we understand more about what's going on with you --
9 B.A.: Why can't you believe I'm not in that mess?
10 DR. JOHNSON: It's not a question of belief We can't go by faith.
11 BRENDA: - And it's not something that you would necessarily have any control over.
12   Nobody does.
13 B.A.: You have control over it.
14 DR. PETERSON: Brenda's...
15 BRENDA: Well, only because I'm here now.
16 DR. PETERSON: ...Brenda's alters, see, in the meantime, have to work on -- I've told you this
17   many times, B.A. I've said, and I've told this to Brenda too, that it's very
18   possible that there are alters in Brenda that were set up to react to seeing you
19   and block and not work. And so, for example, I don't know whether visiting
20   with you today will or will not set her back. I don't know. But we had no
21   choice today --
     
    37
     
1 B.A.: I mean to --
2 DR. PETERSON: -- but what -- but what I'm saying is, that even if you were never involved at
3   all, the cult can still put it in her mind, and I've had patients just like what
4   happened with Dr. Seward with -- with Carol.
5 B.A.: Well, how can we work through that?
6 DR. JOHNSON: Look, you --
7 DR. PETERSON: Well, that's what we have to do -- we have to work that out in therapy.
8 DR. JOHNSON: Okay. You want to be a member of the team, right?
9 B.A.: Exactly.
10 DR. JOHNSON Okay. I say, get yourself assessed so we have a good idea of what's going
11   on with you.
12 B.A.: Well, then let's do it.
13 DR. JOHNSON: And then you're gonna be a more active member of the team.
14 B.A.: I've been waiting on that for --
15 DR. JOHNSON: Then let's do it. Huh?
16 BW. TAYLOR: Yeah.
17 BRENDA: You said last night you didn't want to go.
18 DR. JOHNSON: We're ready.
19 B.A.: I was--
20 BW. SMITH: Wait, let's clarify this, though. All right, B.A., do you want to go to
21   Chicago? Should Dr. Peterson follow --
     
    38
     
1 B.A.: If it's not -- if we're not talking 90 days down the road where I still can't see
2   my wife, yeah, I can see the point of going. Let's go Sunday.
3 DR. PETERSON: But I told you, I think 14 times, but I'm not sure, because I lost count. And
4   that time on the phone, when you and I talked for a long, long time before I
5   called Chicago and I said that the relationship between your assessment and
6   Chicago and whether you can see Brenda are two different things and if
7   you're going to Chicago.
8 B.A.: Yes, you did.
9 DR PETERSON: Remember I said that?
10 B.A.: Yes, you did. That's what also kinda --
11 DR PETERSON: Because - because I said, it's Brenda alters, independent of what they find
12   with you, if-- if they've been set up so when they see their husband, they
13   don't - they block and don't work. That -
14 BA.: But-
15 DR PETERSON: - wait a minute, that's what we're working on in therapy with Brenda. That's
16   not your fault.
17 B.A.: But can you--
18 DR PETERSON: That's a separate -
19 B.A.: - work through it?
20 DR PETERSON: We are working on it.
21 BW. TAYLOR: We're always working on it.
     
    39
     
I B.A.: God, I mean --
2 DR. PETERSON: It doesn't get done overnight. It's not like, okay - well --
3 B.A.: (UI)--
4 DR. PETERSON: -- when you figure that out --
5 DR. SEWARD: Can I -- can I interrupt a second? Can I interrupt a second? Dr. Johnson,
6   is it strictly your idea that Brenda can't meet with B.A.?
7 DR JOHNSON: No, it's not, it's strictly not me at all.
8 DR SEWARD: And Dr. Peterson, is it -
9 DR PETERSON: Unh-unh.
10 B.A.: - strictly your idea?
11 B.A.: It came from her. -
12 BW. TAYLOR: Unh-unh.
13 BRENDA: No, it came from me.
14 B.A.: Come on now, Dr. Peterson told me that week I went out of town --
15 BRENDA: Dr. Peterson made the suggestion to me.
16 B.A.: Okay, the suggestion -
17 BRENDA: And I went along with it because -
18 B.A.: - the suggestion.
19 BRENDA: - to facilitate treatment.
20 DR PETERSON: To see what would happen.
21 BRENDA: And now we are-
     
    40
     
1 B.A.: You're not talking to me. About any at all --
2 BRENDA: Now we are finding - I talked to you about it when we had the last family
3   meeting.
4 B.A.: Why--
5 BRENDA: I tried to explain it to you--
6 B.A.: Ten minutes.
7 BRENDA: - And you chose not to -- to listen to me, just as you're choosing not to
8   listen to me now.
9 B.A. I'm not listening right now because you told me -- you gave me five minutes
10   and you didn't explain nothing. You talked in vague circles.
11 DR SEWARD: Do you-
12 BRENDA: Well -
13 DR SEWARD: - hear clearly now?
14 BRENDA: - I don't think Dr. Peterson was talking to you in vague circles.
15 B.A.: I do.
16 BRENDA: And she can explain it a lot better than L
17 DR PETERSON: B.A., we were sitting right in this room here when I said, "I don't know what
18   will help with the blocking.". We talked then about if your wife remained o
19   blocked the next thing is to see if maybe she ought to go to Chicago.
20 B.A.: Uh-huh.
21 DR PETERSON: Okay? But in the mean time, I'll try every single thing we can.
     
    41
     
1 BRENDA: Uh-huh
2 DR PETERSON: We'll try really intensive work. We'll try you and she not visiting. We'll try
3   everything right now to see, and what happened was, Brenda has really
4   become unblocked.
5   Well, good. Then we ought to be able to start over. Let's run a test run.
6   See what happened for a week of visitations, and if it goes back, then we'll
7   know. If it don't go back, then we could continue --
S DR. PETERSON: Her alters --
9 DR SEWARD: Do you know how far back you might set her?
10 BA.: No-
ii DR. SEWARD: I mean-
12 B.A.: - you'll never know, though, till you - don't you test?
13 BRENDA: Well, we have to find out about -
14 B.A.: Don't you know though?
15 DR PETERSON: So you're willing to risk the $150,000 of your insurance company's money?
16 B.A.: I guess so, I mean but you're willing to risk it not to. I mean -
17 DR PETERSON: What are her alters saying?
IS B.A.: I don't know.
19 BRENDA: My alters are telling me that we have to see how this comes - how this is
20   going to come off.
21 B.A.: Come on.
     
    42
     
I BRENDA: Um, I don't feel like I've shut down, but I didn't actually try to do any work
2   last night, after B.A. left. I was too exhausted, so --
3 B.A.: You was doped up. Ativan and everything else.
4 BRENDA: No, all I had was Ativan.
5 B.A.: Well, that's enough to dope you up. I guess you couldn't do no work.
6 BRENDA: Well, anyway, I think that you should give it a chance and let's see what
7   happens after that.
S DR. PETERSON: Wait a minute.
9 BW. TAYLOR: That's --
10 DR PETERSON: I'm really bothered by that --
11 BW. TAYLOR: Yeah.
12 DR PETERSON: You need to hear me.
13 BW. TAYLOR: That's -
14 DR. PETERSON: This is - this is one of problems, I - and this is what was happening to that
15   you reminded me -
16 BW. TAYLOR: Yeah.
17 DR PETERSON: - when you said that, you were very helpful. The other thing that came up
15   when we went in this very room was that there were things that were
19   happening. Remember where you - you talked about that at the time Brenda,
20   that you were saying things to B.A. that were real negative about your --
21   your programing here, and about your therapy and about --
     
    43
     
1 B.A.: (UT)--
2 DR. PETERSON: -- whatever --
3 BRENDA: Uh-huh.
4 DR. PETERSON: -- that was really getting in the way and -- and causing more and more --
5 BRENDA: Right.
6 DR. PETERSON: -- more of a problem. And the whole business of -- I mean, right what you
7   just said now, Brenda's not doped up.
8 BW. TAYLOR: No.
9 B.A.: She was last night, though. That's why she didn't do no work. She took an
10   Ativan she said, at least one.
11 BW. TAYLOR: She said that she couldn't work after you left.
12 B.A.: That's when she took the Ativan.
13 BW. TAYLOR: You mentioned the Ativan.
14 B.A.: Right, she - because Lisa brought -
15 BW. TAYLOR: You brought up the medication -
16 B.A.: - Lisa brought her into the uh, room to take an Ativan. She said, "Come
17   on, do you need an Ativan?"
15 DR SEWARD: Well, Brenda said that-
19 BW. TAYLOR: I'm uncomfortable with that line. I mean, I've seen that used to stop therapy
20   before, and I'm uncomfortable with that conversation.
21   I'm sorry, but that's what she said. That's what -
     
    44
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Doped up?
2 B.A.: - Lisa said.
3 DR SEWARD: Doped up?
4 B.A.: Lisa said --
5 DR. PETERSON: Let's dope her up?
6 B.A.: No, Lisa said, "Do you need an Ativan?' Brenda said, "Yes" "Come on, I'll -
7
8 DR SEWARD: What is --
9 B.A.: -- get you one."
10 DR SEWARD: -- What is Ativan for?
11 B.A.: Huh?
12 DR SEWARD: What is-
13 B.A.: Calm you down, dope you up. I know what it -
14 DR SEWARD: Whoa -- whoa -whoa -- wait, which -
15 BW. TAYLOR: No, no, no, no -
16 DR SEWARD: -- Which?
17 B.A.: It don't do both?
18 DR SEWARD: No.
19 DR PETERSON: No.
20 B.A.: What's the difference between doping you up and calming you down?
21   What's the difference?
     
    45
     
1 DR. SEWARD: I don't know what "doping up" means.
2 B.A.: I mean, make you drowsy or -- It don't make you drowsy?
3 DR. SEWARD: What's that got to do with not wanting to work?
4 B.A.: Well, if you're drowsy, you're not gonna want to work, you want to sleep.
5 DR. JOHNSON: Sometimes.
6 B.A.: Well--
7 DR. SEWARD: Did you get sleepy after you took that?
8 BRENDA: No.
9 B.A.: Huh, come on, damn. (UI)--
10 DR. PETERSON: You see -- you see that --
11 DR SEWARD: (UT) --
12 B.A.: I've got one, two, three, four, five, six --
13 BRENDA: Tie me down.
14 DR JOHNSON: (UT) B.A., I got -
15 BA.: - six people against me right here. I see I'm--
16 DR JOHNSON: I'm not against you.
17 B.A.: -on a lost cause.
18 BW. TAYLOR: Nobody's -
19 BW. DAVIS: We're not against you-
20 BW. TAYLOR: - against you.
     
    46
     
1 BW. DAWS: - B.A.
2 BW. TAYLOR: We're very concerned --
3 DR. JOHNSON: I got --
4 BW. TAYLOR: -- about you and Brenda.
5 DR. JOHNSON: -- I got an emergency call last night from the nursing staff saying your wife
6   was extremely agitated and I prescribed some Ativan last night, because I
7   was concerned about my patient.
8 B.A. Lisa - every time we was talking - she was holding my hand last night.
9   Lisa came outside --
10 BRENDA: But I kept telling you --
11 BA.: -and-
12 BRENDA: -- I felt uncomfortable with that.
13 B.A.: - you did not until Lisa came outside and asked you.
14 BRENDA: I know-I told--
15 BW. SMITH: Time out -
16 BRENDA: - you from the beginning..
17 BW. SMITH: -Time out -
18 B.A.: Excuse me, but you didn't.
19 BW. SMITH: - Time out, time out, time out. I was there last night.
20 B.A.: I know it.
21 BW. SMITH: Okay.
     
    47
     
1 B.A.: She was holding my hand.
2 BW. SMITH: Uh, but Brenda had - did tell you right from the start that it was
3   uncomfortable.
4 B.A.: But - yes, she did.
5 BW. SMITH: And you found that difficult --
6 B.A.: I sure did.
7 BW. SMITH: - and Brenda went along with it and then said, "No, this is no good."
8 B.A.: Lisa came up and asked her if that was okay. Then she said, "No."
9 BW. SMITH: That was after I sat down, because, yes, Brenda was getting upset and what -
10   ah -- ah -- ah - give me a break, I was there. What happened then, is that
11   the conversation between the two of you got intense.
12 B.A.: Exactly.
13 BW. SMITH: And yes, Brenda --
14 B.A.: She rejected me.
15 BW. SMITH: Brenda was getting upset.
16 B.A.: She rejected me.
17 BW. SMITH: No, not rejecting you, B.A. I was there.
18 B.A.: What do you call it - your wife don't want to hold, your hand your wife
19   don't want to be a wife.
20 BW. SMITH: B.A., B.A., B.A., she was explaining where she was coming from. It was
21   difficult for you to hear it because -
     
    48
     
1 B.A.: I said it was difficult --
2 BW. SMITH: -- it was interpreted as a rejection. And then what happened, the more
3   upset she got, that is how the issue of Ativan came up because Brenda was
4   keeping her calm and trying to make you understand and yes, you know, the
5   bottom line is here, you were enraged last night. You were very upset, but
6   that's it. I meant there was no doping, there was -- I mean, like, you know --
7   with let's -- let's not -- let's keep it in perspective here. Okay?
8 B.A.: I said Ativan.
9 BW. SMITH: Okay. All right. But that's how that occurred and Brenda did try - I mean,
10   first she didn't want to see you because she didn't think it was good and then
11   when you were so upset, she realized that she needed to see you, so there
12   was a lot of give and take here last night.
13 LI: However--
14 BW. SMITH: And you even said to me that yes, you knew Brenda was giving to you, but
15   you needed to have your needs satisfied last night -
16 B.A.: However -
17 BW. SMITH: -- and you did. Yes, go ahead.
18 B.A.: She did - why does she need it to be satisfied here? Why can't she come
19   home like a normal wife and be home with her normal husband, and be
20   satisfied?
21 BRENDA: Because I'm not -
     
    49
     
1 B.A.: Why are you using this --
2 BRENDA: -- a normal wife.
3 B.A.: - as a - you are a normal wife. I was very satisfied with you for the last
4   ten years, till you walked your foot in this door.
5 BW. SMITH: Now, B.A., wait. You know what you need to do, too -- we're -- we're
6   beginning to get off track.
7 B.A.: Yeah, we are.
8 BW. SMITH: Okay? Because one of the things that we were - is that, you know, will
9   you be assessed? And I heard, "Yes," you will be, but the other things we
10   need to look at, too, is because we're starting to run out of time. Let's look
11   at what -- no, B.A., now stop. What else do we need to cover that you want
12   to cover?
13 B.A. Alright, first of all I - who's gonna notify me when she is ready to talk to
14   me, if she'll ever be ready to talk to me again and see me again?
15 DR. PETERSON: B.A. -
16 B.A.: Who's gonna call me? Who's gonna notify me?
17 DR PETERSON: How many - how many times did you call me and I called you back right
18   away?
19 B.A.: But who's gonna notify me?
20 DR. PETERSON: Excuse me. You didn't answer my question.
21 B.A.: That don't ask nothing to do with this question here, though.
     
    50
     
1 DR. PETERSON: Yes, it does. You told me that you want to talk to me every week.
2 B.A.: Uh-huh.
3 DR. PETERSON: And did you?
4 B.A. Yes.
5 DR. PETERSON: Okay.
6 B.A.: But who's gonna --
7 DR. PETERSON: And you and I -
8 B.A.: -- notify me?
9 DR. PETERSON: Well, what's been happening, already?
10 B.A.: Who is gonna --
11 DR. PETERSON: What is - what is the track record of this treatment team? You asked if you
12   could call me.
13 B.A.: Yeah.
14 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh. Is that what you want to do?
15 B.A.: I would like to - rather prefer talking to my wife.
16 DR PETERSON: I think the first thing you need to do is to do your part. You know, Brenda
17   and the girls are working very hard.
18 B.A.: That's what I hear, but I don't see no progress. I don't see them out the door
19   yet.
20 DR PETERSON: I don't see any progress from you yet, in terms of getting an assessment and
21   then after that -
     
    51
     
1 B.A.: - I told you to get it-
2 DR PETERSON: -- and that says that we -
3 B.A.: -- but it - the ball didn't -
4 DR. PETERSON: Yes.
5 B.A.: -- it hadn't been gotten yet.
6 DR. PETERSON: Everything's been done that can be to get the assessment started.
7 B.A.: Alright, well what am I supposed to do?
8 DR. PETERSON: And then the next --
9 B.A.: Wait by the phone day and night, waiting on the phone call, the infamous
10   phone calls?
11 DR. PETERSON: You were out of town until Sunday and this is Wednesday.
12 BRENDA: Yeah.
13 B.A.: Well, what am I suppose to do? Wait by the phone? Wait until, "Maybe one
14   day she'll call." Am I supposed to do that? Come on, give me some feelings
15   here. I'm supposed to -I've got feelings, you know?
16 BRENDA: I know you do--
17 B.A.: And you're rejecting me.
18 BRENDA: I am not rejecting you.
19 B.A.: You are rejecting me. I'm sorry.
20 BRENDA: I'm sorry you perceive it that way -
21 B.A.: I don't perceive it--
     
    52
     
1 BRENDA: -- That is not what I am doing.
2 B.A.: -- It's cold, hard facts. You are rejecting me.
3 DR. PETERSON: B.A., what about marital therapy after you get your assessment, so that you
4   can work on these kind of issues.
5 B.A.: How are we gonna work on them when I can't see her?
6 DR. PETERSON: Well, that's what --
7 BW. TAYLOR: (UT) the assessment --
8 BRENDA: That's what they're proposing. After you go and get your assessment --
9 B.A.: After it--
10 BRENDA: -- done.
11 B.A.: What about now?
12 DR. PETERSON: You're having one right now.
13 BRENDA: You're having a marital session right now.
14 B.A.: Bull shit. Having nothing but --
15 BW. SMITH: Because one of most important things, B.A., is that the assessment is done
16   so that we know what we're working with.
17 DR. PETERSON: Right. And so you know what you're --
18 B.A.: If you have any proof that I am involved in this mess, put the cards on the
19   table, let's turn ëem --
20 DR. PETERSON: She's told you --
21 B.A.: --face up.
     
    53
     
1 DR. PETERSON: -- you've been drugged and (UT) --
2 BRENDA: I have already told you.
3 B.A.: I've been drugged.
4 DR PETERSON: And hypnotized.
5 B.A.: And hypnotized.
6 DR. PETERSON: And I don't know what happened to you during that time, do you?
7 B.A.: Huh?
8 DR. PETERSON: I don't know what happened to you.
9 B.A.: She said I was asleep.
10 DR. PETERSON: I don't know what's happened.
11 B.A.: She said I was asleep.
12 BRENDA: Information has been given to your therapist that came from my system.
13 B.A.: What? Come on, I want the cards on the table now. Hard, cold facts.
14   You're not convincing me. I want hard, cold facts. Give them to me.
15   Convince me.
16 DR SEWARD: Was B.A. ever tied up?
17 BRENDA: Yes, he was.
18 B.A.: I don't believe it. When?
19 DR PETERSON: Was B.A. ever raped?
20 BRENDA: Yes, he was.
21 B.A.: By who?
     
    54
     
1 BRENDA: By--
2 B.A.: Come on --
3 BRENDA: -- one of my alters. Would you like to know what her name is?
4 B.A.: Yes.
5 BRENDA: It is Christina.
6 B.A.: When?
7 BRENDA: It started a long time ago.
8 B.A.: When?
9 BRENDA: You were conditioned.
10 UT.: I was what?
11 BRENDA: Conditioned?
12 B.A.: What do you mean? Spell it out.
13 BRENDA: It's just like --
14 B.A.: I don't want to have to assume nothing. I want it plain and clear.
15 BRENDA: It's just like conditioning an athlete, you start them out slow and then you
16   work up to the hard stuff.
17 B.A.: And what?
18 BRENDA: It started out with cuddling and kissing and all that kind of stuff.
19 B.A.: That's normal. Every husband and wife does that.
20 BRENDA: Right. Exactly.
21 B.A.: And?
     
    55
     
1 BRENDA: You're not -- I mean -- you're not -
2 DR. SEWARD: Being tied up.
3 BRENDA: Then it went to being tied up. It was put into-
4 B.A.: I was never tied up.
5 BRENDA: -- It was put into our sexual activities.
6 B.A.: I was never tied up.
7 BRENDA: Yes, you were.
8 B.A.: No, I wasn't.
9 BRENDA: Oh, God.
10 B.A.: You're dreaming. I know you're crazy now.
11 BRENDA: You wanted facts, I've given you facts.
12 B.A.: Give them to me. Come on, more.
13 BRENDA: You choose not to believe me.
14 B.A.: Come on, I want to hear some more of this dream.
15 BRENDA: If it's a dream, why do-
16 B.A.: Is it a fantasy?
17 BRENDA: -you want me to--
18 B.A.: Of yours or what?
19 BRENDA: No, it's not a fantasy.
20 B.A.: Then tell me some more. What? Hard, cold facts, come on.
21 BRENDA: I've given them to you and you don't believe them.
     
    56
     
I B.A.: That's only two.
2 BW. DAVIS: You're discounting what she's saying. Why should she say more?
3 B.A.: I'm not discounting. I just want --
4 BRENDA: Yes, you are. You don't believe me.
5 UT.: Or we can go around--
6 BW. DAVIS: Call it a dream is discounting --
7 B.A.: -- in circles all day, are you gonna talk or you just gonna say I don't believe
8   you?
9 DR. SEWARD: Do you believe her?
10 B.A.: I don't know. I want hard, cold facts.
11 DR. PETERSON: You just got one to deal with right now.
12 B.A.: That's what -- how can you prove that you tied me up?
13 BW.DAVIS: : B.A., there's got to be--
14 BRENDA: What kind of proof do you want?
15 B.A.: I want proof.
16 DR PETERSON: Pictures?
17 B.A.: Yeah.
18 BRENDA: I don't have any pictures.
19 B.A.: When did it happen?
20 BRENDA: I can't give you specific dates.
21 B.A.: Why?
     
    57
     
I DR. SEWARD: Can you -- can you remember the last time it happened?
2 BRENDA: Um, it was in December. Sometime around the middle of December.
3 B.A.: Get out of here.
4 BRENDA: You see?
5 B.A.: What did you do --
6 DR. PETERSON: Are those things --
7 B.A.: - in December?
8 DR. PETERSON: -- are those things that would be important to work out in marital therapy?
9 B.A.: No. Why?
10 BRENDA: I would think so.
11 DR PETERSON: Okay.
12 B.A.: Because I never -- you never did nothing like that.
13 BRENDA: You're asking me to give you facts.
14 B.A.: What did you do in December?
15 BRENDA: I have given you facts.
16 B.A.: What did you do in December? Well?
17 DR SEWARD: Is it safe to say?
18 BRENDA: You had been conditioned by one of my alters, who's name is Chnstirs,
19   have oral sex, and then your balls were squeezed. Now, how much more
20   concrete do you want to get than that?
21 B.A.: You did not do that. That's bull shit.
     
    58
     
1 BRENDA: Well, if you don't want to believe - you are choosing not to believe me.
2 DR. PETERSON: Do you want to work it out?
3 B.A.: What do you mean, "work it out?"
4 DR PETERSON: In marital therapy.
5 B.A.: How you gonna work --
6 DR. PETERSON: Like this talking about it over time, after you get assessed so you can begin
7   to have--
8 B.A.: I don't believe this happened. Why did I not feel it? I mean that hurt.
9 BRENDA: Sylvia gave the information to Deidra last week or week before last
10 BW. DAVIS: With Brenda's consent.
11 BRENDA: With my consent.
12 BW. DAVIS: And with her alter's consent. That you should know --
13 BRENDA: And with the alter's consent, and I also told Dr. Peterson and Sylvia both
14   that I felt it was my responsibility to tell you that it had happened.
15 BW. DAVIS: And it took some guts for her to do that, to be willing and to trust you with
16   that information and to believe that you would not abandon her when you
17   heard it. She put forth a lot of trust -- hear me just a moment. You think it
18   didn't take her some guts to write that down -
19 B.A.: How do I know that that's just not a fantasy.
20 BW. DAVIS: - and to give permission? What has she got to benefit from it?
21 B.A.: How do I know that that's not a dream or something?
     
    59
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Why would she want do have to dream like that?
2 BRENDA: Exactly.
3 BW. DAVIS: She gets no benefit from it.
4 B.A.: Why wouldn't I feel it?
5 BW. DAVIS: It's risky --
6 B.A.: Why wouldn't I feel it?
7 DR PETERSON: That's -
8 DR SEWARD: Because you were drugged.
9 DR. PETERSON: - That's why we would like you to get an assessment --
10 B.A.: Come on doctor if that happened to you, you wouldn't feel it?
-11 DR SEWARD: Not if I was drugged.
12 BRENDA: No, you were drugged -
13 BW. TAYLOR: You were drugged.
14 DR SEWARD: Or hypnotized.
15 BW. TAYLOR: That's why the assessment.
16 DR PETERSON: People have been hypnotized for general surgery, and they don't have any
17   anesthetic and they-
18 DR SEWARD: Uh-huh
19 DR PETERSON: - have surgery done. Hypnosis is - and that is a -
20 DR SEWARD: I saw a man once get a tooth removed with nothing more than hypnosis.
21 BA.: Well-
     
    60
     
1 DR. PETERSON: Hypnosis is used all the time in general surgery.
2 DR SEWARD: And dentistry.
3 BW. TAYLOR: And for delivering babies.
4 DR PETERSON: I think that you need to understand the process, and then work in marital
5   therapy with Brenda about what's happened.
6 B.A.: What happened? I don't know what happened.
7 BRENDA: I just told you what happened.
8 B.A.: Three things. Anything else happened that you're so brave --
9 BW. DAVIS: B.A., I'm afraid --
10 BW. TAYLOR: And so, I think that's part of it.
11 BW. DAVIS: -- you're gonna get kind of overwhelmed here.
12 BW. TAYLOR: Yeah.
13 BW.DAVIS: This has been a lot that--
14 B.A.: I'm not getting -
15 BW. DAVIS: --you've heard today.
16 B.A.: - overwhelmed. It's just that I don't -
17 BW. DAVIS: And-and it's hard to take it in. It's so hard to take it in, and I'm sure that
18   denial and disbelief is kind of a natural first response to this.
19 B.A.: Why wouldn't I remember it afterwards?
20 DR SEWARD: Because that's the way hypnosis works.
21 B.A.: What about drugs? I mean, drugs wear off.
     
    61
     
1 DR. PETERSON: Well, what happened during the drugs, you don't remember.
2 BRENDA: No.
3 DR. SEWARD: That's called state dependent learning.
4 DR. PETERSON: And that's like when you have an anesthetic during surgery and you don't
5   remember the surgery. It's real important that you get the information and
6   understand it more and get that from the doctors and assess hypnotizibilty
7   and assess these things. You've got some people to talk to about it and
8   come back here and really work on it. Work on what's happened. Work on
9   as Brenda's alters are giving out information that will really help you. And help
10   you both be safe together with each other. We want you to be together as a
1 1   family.
12 B.A.: When...will that ever happen?
13 DR. PETERSON: When you take the first step, which could be today.
14 B.A.: Let's go.
15 DR. PETERSON: What would that first step be?
16 B.A.: Huh? Go to Chicago, I guess.
17 DR. SEWARD: Can you go today?
18 B.A.: Hey, I'll go any time.
19 DR. SEWARD: Can Dr. Braun be reached?
20 DR. PETERSON: I'll call him (UI), yeah..
21 B.A.: I'll go any time.
     
    62
     
1 DR. SEWARD: When can you get your ticket?
2 NI S. TAYLOR: There was some concern that you might be able to get it through (UI) --
3 B.A.: No, I called --
4 BW. TAYLOR: -- (UT) cheaper.
5 B.A." -- and she has to be an active employee.
6 BW. TAYLOR: Oh, shoot, okay: Okay.
7 B.A.: To be able to -- even she can't use it on hers.
8 BRENDA: Not when I'm on leave of absence.
9 B.A.: Unh-unh. Has to be an active employee.
10 DR. PETERSON: B.A., this is a complicated problem -- what we're wanting you to do -- as
11   we've studied this for years, is for you to begin to study it, and go to the
12   places that we've been going and gather the information and join us in the
13   information and come back here with more information, more insight, more
14   knowledge, and then really begin to work with what's happened to you, and
15   that's scary, but that's so important.
16 B.A.: Anything else happened to me?
17 DR PETERSON: B.A. --
18 B.A.: Can you help --
19 DR. PETERSON: B.A. --
20 B.A.: -- I mean --
21 DR. PETERSON: B.A., you can't hear any more right now.
     
    63
     
1 B.A.: Yes, I (UI) --
2 DR. PETERSON: No -
3 BW. TAYLOR: No-
4 DR. SEWARD: B.A. -
5 DR. PETERSON: -- there's no point.
6 DR. SEWARD: -- There's been so much that -- that I would guess and I don't have inside
7   information, but I know Carol is so frightened of you, that I can guess
8   that so much has been - that has happened to you in the ten years you've
9   known Brenda, that we would take ten years sitting in this room to tell you.
10 BA.: Why?
11 DR. PETERSON: Because so much has happened to --
12 B.A.: Why has so much happened?
13 DR. SEWARD: To keep you quiet --
14 DR PETERSON: Because that's what -
15 DR SEWARD: - would be my guess.
16 DRPETERSON: -and that--they've--
17 DR SEWARD: To keep you from interfering would be my guess.
18 DR PETERSON: Yeah. The alters - alters are taught to victimize everyone around them.
19   And they - they don't - they're just taught that like they're taught anything
20   else. And they don't want to do that and they don't need to do it.
     
    64
     
1 DR. SEWARD: A typical answer to that question would be something along the line, ~
2   keep you from interfering with the programing of Carol and Alice. And
3   to keep you from interfering with Brenda's work in the cult.
4 DR. PETERSON: And other husbands are working on this and getting well. And --
5 DR. SEWARD: You're actually pretty lucky, B.A., because two years ago, we didn't know
6   how bad off husbands were.
7 DR. PETERSON: We didn't have any idea.
8 BW. TAYLOR: They were not treated.
9 B.A.: Then what happened?
10 DR. SEWARD: And their families got hurt again.
11 BW. TAYLOR: Uh-huh.
12 DR. PETERSON: Yeah.
13 BW. TAYLOR: And they continued to get hurt.
14 BW. DAVIS: I'm so excited that you are willing to go.
15 BW. TAYLOR: Yeah.
16 BW. DAVIS: And that you're eager to go.
17 BW. TAYLOR: Oh, yeah.
18 BW. DAVIS: Aren't -- aren't you, Brenda?
19 BRENDA: Yes, I really am.
     
    65
     
1 BW. DAVIS: I am just so thrilled and happy for you both that he's willing to do this. I'm
2   so proud of this decision.
3 B.A.: I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to take care of you.
4 BW. TAYLOR: Okay, good.
5 BRENDA: I know you are. I know you are.
6 DR. PETERSON: That's wonderful.
7 BW. DAVIS: Credit due -- credit due.
8 DR SEWARD: This is very important, B.A.
9 BRENDA: And I know that you're scared and I know that you're lonely, and please
10   believe me when I tell you that I'm terrified, too. It's no fun remembering
11   all this stuff. It's horrible and it's not a fantasy and it's not a dream. I wish
12   to God it was. It's real.
13 DR PETERSON: And it's not brain washing.
14 BRENDA: And it's not brain washing. They're not puffing words in my mouth. When
15   I go in that room and write, there's nobody in there but me and my alters
16   and my notebook and my pen.
17 DR PETERSON: And I catch up on her memories by asking if I can borrow her journals over
18   night to see what she's been doing, so I can go home and read it And
19   they're doing a great job. And you can begin that process now for yourself.
20   And I'll call Dr. Braun.
21 DR SEWARD: Do you think he would be able to see B.A. tomorrow, to begin the process?
     
    66
     
1 DR. PETERSON: I think one of the people on the treatment team could even elicit Dr. Braun
2   and let the psychologist to do the testing. I'm wondering if-- one of the
3   concerns B.A. had when he and I discussed it that night -- that night was his
4   concern that if he weren't hospitalized and having to pay for a hotel and I
5   didn't know whether there would be concern in terms of how upset and
6   agitated that he has been. That there could be something from psychiatrists
7   in terms of a -- of a cost for hospitalization or whether they would keep him
8   in hotel in terms of not upsetting his business anymore or -- Carol will help
9   you work it out. And then another -- I'm sure there's hotels very close by,
10   though.
11 DR. SEWARD: Well, I'm sure there are and I think there's some inexpensive hotels. There's
12   Motel 6's and --
13 DR. PETERSON: Right. Yeah.
14 BW. TAYLOR: Uh-huh.
15 DR. SEWARD: --Days Inn's and things like that..
16 DR. PETERSON: Cause almost everything could be -- I think everything can be done in
17   outpatient, B.A., so --
18 B.A.: How long are we talking about up there, approximately?
19 DR. PETERSON: I would count on at least a week because of all the tests, because psych
20   testing itself takes -- the battery they give is, uh, more than a day, and then
21   what I would suggest is to space--I think what I--well my guess is Dr.
     
    67
     
1   Braun will want to do two spaced apart Amytals, and you need time to just
    kind of um--
3 B.A.: What is that?
4 DR. PETERSON: That's -- I talked to you about that on the phone --
5 B.A.: That's that truth --
6 DR. SEWARD: Truth serum.
7 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh.
8 B.A.: Uh-huh.
9 DR. PETERSON: Remember when you and I talked about that at length.
10 B.A.: Are you alive I mean uh -- not alive --
11 DR. PETERSON: You are alive. Yes, you are alive --
12 B.A.: Are you uh--
13 DR. PETERSON: -- that -- that works --
14 BW. TAYLOR: It works better that way.
15 B.A.: Do you hear what you're saying and all that?
16 DR. PETERSON: Remember that we talked about it -- I said that that depended on the person,
17   and some people remember everything and some people remember nothing?
18   And then it's tape-recorded, and depending upon the content that it's
19   covered in therapy that the tapes that then be sent back.
20 B.A.: Yeah.
     
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1 DR. PETERSON: With uh -- to go back to therapy here and that that would be, hopefully, the
2   beginning of some content for you in terms of maybe some things that you
3   begin to become aware of, and it may be, too, that nothing comes out of
4   them yet and some sessions with hypnosis would be helpful for you, and it
5   will take some time, just like it's taken Brenda some time. This is not a quick
6   fix problem.
7 DR. SEWARD: It's not a one-day thing.
8 B.A.: I realize that, but it has been almost what -- 70 days today, you've been in
9   here. And we're talking about more.
10 DR. SEWARD: We could be talking six months.
1 1 B.A.: More or total?
12 DR. SEWARD: More. Could be. Because we're talking about lives here, B.A. We're talking
13   about Carol's life and Alice's life and Brenda's life.
14 B.A.: Who would more than likely be the first one out of here?
15 DR. SEWARD: At this point, I don't know. I -- I -- I would suspect that Alice might be the
16   last one out, but I don't know. It depends on --
17 B.A.: She's only thirteen --
18 DR. SEWARD: -- since I'm not working with Brenda. I don't -- I have no way of gauging the
19   kind of progress she makes, except what I hear every Monday morning in
20   progress, because I don't spend a lot of time talking with her.
     
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1 B.A.: Well, right now, I take it that the goals of treatment right now is to get
2   where the -- she's not triggered by any --
3 DR. SEWARD: Where she can be safe away from the hospital and not get pulled back into
4   the cult.
5 B.A.: All three of them?
6 DR. SEWARD. All three of them.
7 BW. DAVIS: Uh-huh.
8 B.A.: So in other words uh, what not go into --
9 BRENDA: Trance.
10 B.A.: -- no -- that word -- the word. What is it? Dissociate.
11 DR. SEWARD: Oh, they'll -- no, all of them will dissociate with (UT).
12 B.A.: They will still dissociate?
13 DR. SEWARD: Yeah.
14 DR. PETERSON: Three to five years of treatment and therapy for people with dissociative
15   disorders.
16 B.A.: But what do they do to not to go into the trance -- not to be triggered or
17   whatever?
18 DR. PETERSON: That's what needs to work on, is the safety plan.
19 DR. SEWARD: They need to go back and have the memories of exactly how the triggers
20   were put in and live through that again uh, in a session.
21 B.A.: Abreaction?
     
    70
     
1 DR. SEWARD: Abreaction. Uh, there's -- there's a variety of different ways to do that. Uh,
2   abreaction is probably the best way. Um, although, there are other ways that
3   may be better at times um, but to live through how the trigger was put in, to
4   see the lies that went with it, so that then they can know that they don't have
5   to do what they were told to do when they were being tortured and as the
6   trigger was being put in.
7 DR. PETERSON: So that then, when it happens again, that they don't act in the same way and
8   they can see the lie and know they're free and they don't have to do it.
9 B.A.: So that would be uh--
10 DR. SEWARD: The other thing you need to remember --
11 B.A.: -- the main goal before they get out of here.
12 DR. SEWARD: -- The other thing you need to remember is that there's not much money for
13   outpatient treatment in your policy.
14 B.A.: What about --
15 DR. SEWARD: So that you may be able to --
16 B.A.: -- like day treatment I mean -- wouldn't that be more conser --
17 DR. PETERSON: There in most jeopardy at night.
18 B.A.: But -- okay, but --
19 DR. PETERSON: They're in most jeopardy -- they live a pretty normal life probably during the
20   daytime than a lot at night that was very harmful to themselves.
     
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1 DR. SEWARD: Had you ever wondered why Carol was often so tired at school?
2   Because she was going places at night.
3 B.A.: How? How-would -- you was driving the car at night?
4 BRENDA: No, not always.
5 DR. SEWARD: Remember you're not always home.
6 B.A.: We only have one car.
7 DR SEWARD: Oh, okay. But that -- that's not the problem for the cult.
8 BRENDA: That's not a problem.
9 B.A.: Getting them out of here on a scale of one to ten, where are we standing on
10   all three of them?
11 DR SEWARD: Carol's at about a two or three. Alice's about one, one and a half
12 DR PETERSON: I'd say Brenda's at about a one, or two.
13 BW. DAVIS: Is that - are those numbers progression in treatment - how much is left to
14   be done?
15 DR PETERSON: Uh-huh
16 BW. DAVIS: Okay, but when you say it's 100 percent chance they would all - or at less
17   high nines that they all may get out, was that your question?
18 B.A.: No.
19 DR SEWARD: Was your question is, "If zero is just starting and ten is a day of discharge?"
20 B.A.: Yeah.
21 DR SEWARD: Cause that was the question I was answering.
     
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1 UT.: Yeah.
2 BW. DAVIS: Oh, okay. Okay.
3 DR PETERSON: And Brenda sat at-zero for a while and so when I say those low numbers, I
4   don't want Brenda or Brenda's alters to feel discouraged because you sat at zero.
5 BRENDA: Oh, I know I did, forever.
6 DR. PETERSON: And now you're really moving.
7 DR. SEWARD: And so did Alice.
8 DR. PETERSON: Yeah. And - and that's - and that's just fantastic, the progress you've
9   made. People sit at different numbers for a while and they were both
10   plunked at zero for a while.
11 DR. SEWARD: Carol is further along because she did get some benefit out of the
12   outpatient treatment.
13 B.A.: Why didn't you get some benefit out of the outpatient treatment?
14 BRENDA: I hadn't been in outpatient as long as Carol.
15 B.A.: A year.
16 BRENDA: And I didn't know - I didn't know about all this for so long. You have to
17   remember, this started coming up in about July or August.
18 DR SEWARD: The other thing that I would suggest to both of you about why that
19   happened is we need to remember that Brenda has been being tortured for
20   many, many, many more years than Carol has.
21 DR PETERSON: Yeah.
     
    73
     
1 DR. SEWARD: She's more highly conditioned than Carol is. Carol's programming
2   isn't complete yet.
3 DR. PETERSON: The old ladies always take longer, B.A.
4 B.A.: Yeah, but come on, by the time you get out of here, you might as well be
5   dead.
6 BRENDA: God, no. Don't say that.
7 B.A.: I think so. What's left?
8 DR. PETERSON: The rest of your lives.
9 B.A.: Huh? What's that? She got out of here at 75 big deal.
10 BRENDA: I'll be out long before I'm 75.
11 DR. SEWARD: Remember, I said, my guess, is somewhere around six months.
12 DR. PETERSON: Now, I don't know if she's 74 now and fooling me.
13 B.A.: Damn near it.
14 DR. PETERSON: Is she 74? Well, then she's a real young 74 and I had no idea we had a
15   geriatric patient. So we'll have to re-look at her birth date.
16 B.A.: Well, you're looking at April, May, June, July, August, September?
17 DR. SEWARD: Possibly.
18 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh.
19 DR. SEWARD: The other thing --
20 B.A.: All summer --
     
    74
     
1 DR. SEWARD: -- you need to know -- the other thing you need to know, B.A. is, October
2   through Christmas is a real bad time.
3 B.A.: So what are we gonna do? Keep them extended?
4 DR. SEWARD: I -- I -- that's not my plan, just because of the season.
5 B.A.: So let them out three months early and get used to it. That way, they'll have
6   six months, three months to plan before October.
7 DR. PETERSON: B.A., this is not a prison where they're being let in and let out, it's a privilege
8   for them to be here.
9 BW. TAYLOR: Uh-huh.
10 UT.: Let them--
11 DR PETERSON: And they're in treatment.
12 B.A.: Where's the privilege in keeping the family together? How can a family
13   exist-
14 BRENDA: That's what we're trying to do.
15 B.A.: - when there's so much separation?
16 DR SEWARD: That's what we're trying to do. B.A.
17 B.A.: Your talking eight months separation - nine months separation.
18 DR. SEWARD: Remember, we're talking about you getting an assessment.
19 BW. TAYLOR: That's step one right now.
20 DR SEWARD: Then we're - then we're going to offer beyond that family therapy once you
21   get back.
     
    75
     
1 B.A.: Once I get back, what then? That's (UT) --
2 DR. PETERSON: What did Dr. Seward just say --
3 DR. SEWARD: I'm -- I'm not saying -- I'm sorry, I miss-spoke myself -- marital therapy.
4 DR. PETERSON: Uh-huh.
5 B.A.: But--
6 NI S. SMITH: But we need to do the assessment first.
7 BRENDA: The assessment needs --
8 DR. SEWARD: Because we need to know what we're dealing with.
9 BRENDA: -- to be done first.
10 B.A.: And -- you had one guy on in here that's been in here for 20 years, Ithink.
11 BRENDA: No, she hasn't been here 20 years..
12 B.A.: Linda uh --
13 DR. PETERSON: The hospital has, I think, only been in existence for eight years.
14 B.A.: Well, she was over at Cypress Creek too. I mean --
15 BRENDA: Well, she's out now.
16 DR. PETERSON: Now I'm not sure. Now she could have camped out here in a tent before the
17   building was built.
18 B.A.: Well, eight years or something like that, then wasn't she?
19 BRENDA: No.
20 B.A.: You told me she --
21 DR. SEWARD: Spring Shadows has been here longer than Cypress Creek.
     
    76
     
1 BW SMITH: Uh-huh.
2 B.A.: But five years, she - you told me she was in the hospital, straight, without
3   going home.
4 BW. TAYLOR: Well, she was -
5 BW. DAVIS: She didn't have a supportive husband.
6 BRENDA: No, she didn't.
7 B.A.: Well, I'm not being very supportive being away. I can't see that, I'm sorry.
8 BRENDA: Will you go get the assessment first and then let's go from there.
9 B.A.: Then what's gonna be the delay?
10 BRENDA: Then there won't be any delay because then we'll know what we have to
11   work with.
12 BW. SMITH: Now, B.A. -
13 DR. PETERSON: B.A. - B.A., you need to hear me real clearly. You really need to really
14   hear me. Dr. Braun is the eminent M.D. in the United States and
15   internationally.
16 B.A.: Uh-huh.
17 DR PETERSON: Calling him is not to cause a delay in seeing your wife. To bother to be able
18   to get the man's time - that's why I told you, "Do you really want to go?
19   And you really want to take this seriously and are you only going -"
20 B.A.: I have always taken it seriously -
21 DR. PETERSON: Just so-
     
    77
     
1 B.A.: -- from day one.
2 DR. PETERSON: -- Wait a minute -- Just so you can see your wife, and I've said that it may
3   be that her own alters make it necessary that she not see you right now, even
4   when you come back except for marital or whatever --that what they
5   recommend is one of the things that we'll take into account, but seeing Dr.
6   Braun or seeing any of the experts up there is not wasting time.
7 B.A.: All right. Let me ask you this --
8 DR. PETERSON: Wait a minute. I have a problem, because I say something and then you
9   don't answer me, you just go on to the next thing, so I'd like a response.
10 B.A.: I realize what you said.
11 DR. PETERSON: All right. Okay. Okay. So what's your response to what I'm saying?
12 B.A.: I am eager to go, I mean I am--
13 DR. PETERSON: Do you understand --
14 B.A.: Yes.
15 DR. PETERSON: -- that it is not wasting time?
16 B.A.: Right.
17 DR. PETERSON: I'm not trying --
18 B.A.: No, I understand that, I mean that was a --
19 DR. PETERSON: That it's actually --
20 B.A.: -- poor choice of words.
21 DR. PETERSON: -- to add value --
     
    78
     
1 B.A.: Right.
2 DR. PETERSON: -- to what you know and to what we know about your family.
3 B.A.: Right. I understand. That was a poor choice of words.
4 DR. PETERSON: And unless you want to do that, I'm not gonna call the man.
5 B.A.: I know. Of course, I want to do that. I want to do anything to get them
6   going.
7 DR SEWARD: So then it will be just simply a matter of Dr. Peterson calling and you getting
8   a plane ticket.
9 B.A.: Exactly.
10 DR. PETERSON: Realizing that because he is the number one person in the world.
11 B.A.: Then he could give me that information before I left here I would --
12 DR. PETERSON: The man may not be right there sitting --
13 UT.: Well, I understand that.
14 DR. PETERSON: -- you know, kind of lying around and you know --
15 BW. TAYLOR: Waiting on B.A. Green to come up to Chicago to see him.
16 DR. PETERSON: -- and it may be, B.A. a week before he has the spot and he has his team,
17   because people from all over the United States and Europe send people to
18   see him.
19 DR. SEWARD: You understand the company you will be in up there?
20 B.A.: Yes.
     
    79
     
1 DR. PETERSON: That it's a prestigious group and I will do my level best, and he knows me
2   personally and he's worked with me from the beginning of my time in this
3   field. He has been my mentor. Okay, but I can't say to you and I don't
4   want -- I mean you can do it if you want to, but I don't want you yelling and
5   screaming at me tomorrow because Dr. Braun isn't gonna see you
6   tomorrow
7 B.A.: Okay, I understand that.
8 DR PETERSON: Because I can't make his schedule.
9 B.A.: I understand that and that's reasonable.
10 DR PETERSON: Okay, okay, I'll do my very best.
11 B.A.: Only thing, now, let me ask you this, I'm doing my part as far as going up
12   there, to try to find out what's going on with me to get this treatment going,
13   why can't you talk to your parts inside to find out exactly what's going on so
14   that you can - once I comc back from Chicago, well both be ready.
15 BRENDA: That's what I plan on doing.
16 B.A.: I mean it. I'm not playing. I'm not joking round.
17 BRENDA: That is what - I'm not either.
18 BA.: I think you are because you've been playing for a year and a half or still-
19   I'd like to be part of the treatment team.
20 BW. DAVIS: B.A., she just agreed with what you asked.
21 B.A.: I mean get down-
     
    80
     
1 BW. DAVIS: Did you happen to notice that?
2 B.A.: - to bare tactics work. Yes, I noticed it, but I think, does she hear me? Do
3   your parts hear me?
4 DR. SEWARD: I'm gonna have to stop.
5 DR. PETERSON: Me too.
6 BW. TAYLOR: No --
7 B.A.: Can I be taught once I come back what is - what she's doing to me and to
8   be made aware of what she has done to me so that it can be prevented - he
9   done in the future?
10 DR. PETERSON: Your therapist was told last week.
11 BW.DAVIS: You go to (UI).
12 BRENDA: She was.
13 B.A.: Some of it, probably. Not all of it. What about -
14 BRENDA: She was told everything that I knew.
15 BA.: What about the internal contract? Can they work?
16 DR PETERSON: B.A. --
17 B.A.: Her internal contract.
18 DR PETERSON: B.A.?
19 B.A.: Huh?
20 DR PETERSON: You need the assessment in Chicago.
21 B.A.: I'll go.
     
    81
     
1 DR. PETERSON: And your wife is working hard and I couldn't say that three weeks ago.
2 B.A.: Are you gonna be able to agree that you'll be ready for me when I come
3   back?
4 DR. PETERSON: B.A., let me --
5 B.A.: By working harder --
6 DR. PETERSON: -- B.A., I told you a week-and-a-half ago on the phone --
7 B.A.: I remember what you told me --
8 DR. PETERSON: - wait, wait, wait, what did I tell you?
9 B.A.: That it -- depends on her alters --
10 DR. PETERSON: Your going to Chic -- you're going to Chicago didn't mean --
11 B.A.: Exactly.
12 DR. PETERSON: Are you my witness Carol?
13 BW. SMITH: I -- I'm witnessing this, yes.
14 B.A.: I, exactly, I hear you.
15 DR. PETERSON: And Carol's like a recorder.
16 B.A.: I know it.
17 DR. PETERSON: Okay? It doesn't mean that she's gonna be ready yet. And it doesn't mean
18   you're gonna be ready and you've got individual stuff to deal with too about
19   the stuff that you're gonna find out in Chicago. You've got that to deal with,
20   too.
21 BRENDA: Plus what you found out today.
     
    82
     
1 DR SEWARD: That's correct.
2 DR. PETERSON: That's right.
3 B.A.: Alright, how do --
4 DR. PETERSON: Now, I want - I want - you know what I want you to do? I want you to
5   stop going over that list and take what you've got, now you've got so much
6   now, your plate's full.
7 B.A.: 1 know it but let me ask this question to Dr. Seward, though. How do the
8   girls feel about the separation?
9 DR SEWARD: They feel comfortable with it.
10 B.A.: They do realize that I am here --
11 DR PETERSON: Carol is beside herself with fear with the notion she may have to be
12   with you.
13 B.A.: Well, let me ask you this, do they realize I am here for them?
14 DR SEWARD: Yes.
15 B.A.: That I did not desert them.
16 DR SEWARD: Every time you have asked me to tell them that, I have.
17 B.A.: Will you tell them again?
18 DR SEWARD: I will tell them again.
19 B.A.: And that it's not my will to be away from them, not to visit them.
20 DR SEWARD: I have told them that every time you have asked me to do that.
21 B.A.: Uh-huh.
     
    83
     
1 DR. SEWARD: And Sylvia can also carry the message to Alice.
2 BW. DAVIS: Absolutely.
3 B.A.: Nothing on toxicology yet?
4 DR. SEWARD: No --
5 BW. SMITH: No, they're faxing -- as soon as they fax it --
6 BW. DAVIS: Do you want to keep that page -- those pages for your first marriage therapy
7   session?
8 BW. SMITH: I think that would be a good idea.
9 BW. DAVIS: Get some more mileage out of them then, huh?
10 DR. PETERSON: And how about take --
11 BW. TAYLOR: The letter --
12 DR. PETERSON: -- the letter that Brenda spent a lot of time writing?
13 B.A.: I was up at 6:00 o'clock this morning doing that, so --
14 DR. SEWARD: I -- I really have to stop.
15 DR. PETERSON: (Ill) --
16 BRENDA: These folks have other patients they need to see.
17 B.A.: Can we visit for a little bit before I have to leave?
18 BRENDA: Long enough to go smoke a cigarette. Okay?
19   (END OF SIDE B)
     
    84
     

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