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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #1, Side A - Date: 11/20/1991

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

JP: Judith Peterson Ph.D

BW: Barbara White

(UI) Unintelligible


Beginning of tape.

     
1 JP: And you know that Bobbi has said he is the most programmed
2   kid, at that age, she has ever come across. So
3   congratulations everybody.
4 BW: (UI) hate myself (UI).
5 JP: I know you do.
6 BW: I hate myself. Don’t you know that I love my son?
7 JP: Yes, I know that.
8 BW: (Sobbing)
9 JP: And can the parts that...
10 BW: . . and if I could co back and change it, I would do it
11   differently. But I can’t. All I can do is go...
12 JP: ... going forward now means actually changing things now.
13   Going forward now means stopping with an eye on me and
14   work on what’s really happening. Going forward now means
15   changing, and remembering things that have really happened
16   to yourself and George.
17 BW: (Sobbing)
18 JP: Going forward now means breaking through the barriers that
19   they say they put in you. That you believe, because you
     
    1
     
1   believe everything the cult says. Like you believe that
2   they would keep George safe if you did certain things, you
3   know how much that worked. So those of you, down deep,
4   who believe that lie.. you believe that lie, didn’t you?
5 BW: No I didn’t.
6 JP: Yeah, you do.
7 BW: Yeah I did believe it.
8 JP: That was stupid.
9 BW: Yes, that was stupid.
10 JP: ... (talking over each other) (UI) yes that was stupid...
11 BW: ... (UI) how stupid to think I...
12 JP: .. Yeah, so why do you believe the other stupid stuff?
13 BW: .. And you know what? You know what? made, I was so
14   sure that I would not trust anyone so this would never
15   happen to you.
16 JP: Yeah, and that’s not true at all. And other parts inside
17   you did all that, and so everybody was fooled. Everybody
18   was fooled.
19 BW: And then I...
20 JP: .. And now you go on and you believe that they do zap,
21   zap, zap and nobody’s going to remember any thing, and
22   you’re always going to be unable to help yourself. And
23   you believe all that crap too. When are you going to stop
     
    2
     
1   believing the cult? You’re great big example with George
2   that they didn’t do what they said and they used him, and
3   abused him, and trained him behind your back.
4 BW: (Sobbing) How do you think that makes me feel?
5 JP: I hope motivated enough now, that you won t even believe
6   what they’re saying about your programing. That you’re
7   not caught up in a lot of barriers and walls and
8   everything else. And inaccessible and this and that and
9   all the other. They told you all that too. (Pause) Well
10   when people will finally understand that that’s all
11   fiction too, they can begin to work. But that was a lie
12   too. (Pause) That you can make sense, and you can come
13   together, you can work.
14 BW: (Sobbing) We are going to.
15 JP: When?
16 BW: I don t know...
17 JP: .. Cause time’s running out.
18 BW: No, that’s not what I was going to say. I was going to
19   say, I am doing the best I can. And I know that’s not
20 good enough for you.
21 JP: That’s right. No, it’s not good enough period. It’s not
22   good enough period.
23 BW: I am doing the best I can. I am...
     
    3
     
1 JP: . . You’re making...
2 BW: . . working with my system.....and...
3 JP: .. You will be discharged from this hospital, hospital
4   without having done that.
5 BW: I am...
6 JP: .. Are you prepared for that?
7 BW: .. to do whatever it takes...
8 JP: Are you prepared for that? Are you prepared for that?
9   Are you prepared for that?
10 BW: No!
11   To turn, to turn away from help?
12 BW: I’m not turning away from help.
13 JP: Yeah, in, in, in the, in the slow, methodical, I’ll
14   journal this, I’ll journal that. And parts not coming out
15   to work with me directly. That really know how to make
16   changes in the system. You are choosing to turn your back
17   on help that’s right here. And I will only try for so
18   long and then I will not spend anymore of my therapeutic
19   hours on you. And I will say - that’s it And you’re
20   getting real close to the end. And so you’re throwing
21   away any help for you, and any help for you and George being
22   together. (Pause) Now where are the parts that really
23   know how to make a change in Barbara? Where are the parts
     
    4
     
1   that can really work with me, and join with me in working?
2   I’ve been asking that about months. (Pause) Months.
3 BW: I’ve been giving it to you (UI)
4 JP: You are the only person in the unit, in the entire (UI),
5   ever. That is going to let you do that right now. (UI)
6   Where are the parts that can help? You all can hear me.
7   But you’re good cult members (UI). (UI) (Pause) And all
8   are gonna go back...
9 BW: ...No...
10 JP: ...to the dogs of (UI) and gonna go back to the (UI)...
12 JP: Yes.
13 BW: No!
14 JP: I am not...
15 BW: ...NO!
16 JP: You are.
17 BW: NO!
18 JP: Yeah, you are.
19 BW: No, I didn’t spend two years, I didn’t...
20 JP: ... Sure, they like that too, huh.
21 BW: (Shouting) Shut up, shut up! Don’t...
     
    5
     
1 JP: ...you’ve spend two years, yeah, they’ll laugh at that
2   too. They’ll laugh at that too. They’ll have a laugh on
3   you.
4 BW: No (sobbing).
5 JP: They’ll have a laugh on you.
6 BW: No, no!
7 JP: Yeah, yeah they will.
8 BW: No (moaning)
9 JP: Yeah, yeah, you can have a laugh on them if somebodv will
10   come out and work with me. You can have a laugh on them.
11   ’Cause you’re with someone that could help. (Pause)
12   They’ll laugh about that too, won’t they? Everybody down
13   deep, do you know they’ll use that too? Everybody down
14   deep, do you know that? Your mother will. Won’t she?
15 BW: I hate my mother, I hate her, I hate her, I wish I could
16   kill her.
17 JP: Oh but she’s going to laugh. She’s gonna say, look ha ha
18   you’re in hospitals. Yeah, yeah two good ones too. Yeah,
19   with good people. Look. Look. Look. You’ll, you’ll
20   never get out of this. You’ll never get out of it. That,
21   she’ll say that. You could prove her wrong. (Pause) Do
22   you all down deep hear me? Because I’m right here, and
23   you’re losing. You’re losing out. (Pause) I feel like
     
    6
     
1   taking my hand and taking it right down your throat and
2   grabbing alters out. But I can’t do that. (Pause)
3   Because I’d love so much to help you. Yeah, I’m right
4   here, and I’m not gonna be. Because I know when to stop.
5   (Pause) And I will cry and I will grieve for your loss.
6   I really will. (Pause)
7 BW: What do you want me to tell you, I...
8 JP: Mom will be proud of the helplessness. (Pause) There are
9   parts inside that know how to work with me.
10 BW: (UI)
11   (Pause)
12 JP: No, get in touch with the parts that are laughing and
13   don’t want to work with this bitch out here. That’s what
14   you told Doctor Raymond, right? Some of you did. Why
15   don’t you tell me that?
16 BW: I didn’t say that.
17 JP: Yeah. Why don’t you come out and work with me? Why don’t
18   you at least give it a try? Are you afraid to go back to
19   the cult and say you even worked with me? You want to go
20   back and tell well I didn’t even work with her at all.
21   You aren’t going to go back with any information about how
22   therapy works ’cause you haven’t had any therapy. So you
     
    7
     
1   aren’t even going to be a good information source about
2   this place.
3 BW: I don’t see how you can...
4 JP: ...You’re gonna fail at that too. You’re just taking up
5   space then.
6 BW: I understand that you’re doing this because you think this
7   is what’s good for me...
8 JP: ...NO!...
9 BW: ...all you’re doing is pushing my alters up against the
10   wall and, and (pause) ...
11 JP: ...And they better make a decision to back up against the
12   wall, that’s right. That’s right. It’s time to shit or
13   get off the pot. You’re choosing the cult, and you guys
14   will have the last laugh, I will laugh, sadly.
15 BW: I don’t have to go back (UI)
16   (Pause)
17 JP: And there will be no normal life because you will not have
18   Dick and George. If it all depended upon that, we’ll not
19   have that either. It will be all the cult.
20 BW: (Crying and moaning) You, I don’t know what you want, tell
21   me what you want and I will do it, I could (UI)...
22 JP: ...It’s very simple, I keep saying the same thing over and
23   over again. And all of you can plainly hear it. You can
     
    8
     
1   go back to the cult and say, gee it works, except it’s all
2   gonna backfire. Because all of you, all of you are going
3   back. Because all I am saying, is that I will only work
4   with the parts that are the leaders.
5   (Pause)
6 JP: What’s going on inside?
7 BW: It’s just the same.
8   (Pause) (Blowing noise UI)
9 BW: She always thought she was superior.
10 JP: Yep. (Pause) What’s she saying?
11 BW: (UI)? (Pause) (UI) say, she always thought she was
i2   superior. And yet, yet she was so loyal. And yet it was,
13   it was, it was this body that people did things to, this
14   body that did things to other people.
15 JP: Your body won’t let you (UI)?
16 BW: In...(UI). (UI) she (UI) and I thought I was so great
17   because I was teaching my child to be the best and I, I
18   was good at performing and I knew cause I really loved to
19   do it. And there I’m the biggest fool. And that doesn’t
20   even matter. I don’t care about me. But I care about
21   George.
22 JP: Hear me that no mater what part, even down deeper (UI)
23   And all of you down deep to know that for safety (UI)
     
    9
     
1   the cult. There are parts of you (UI) . Other parts of
2   you will always have a multiple job. You will always have
3   a life (UI) mouth. Putting things up your butt and
4   whatever...
5 BW: . . .NO!. . .
6 JP: ...(UI) and (UI) pornographic films. And they will always
7   do that, always, always, always. That is the cult life.
8 BW: Maybe I deserve it. Maybe because I did it to George.
9   Maybe that’s what I deserve.
10 JP: Fine, if that’s what you all decide, then that’s what
11   you’ll have to decide on decisions about me. But you need
12   to know that means you also will remain a murderer.
13 BW: No!
14 JP: Oh yes. You will remain someone that tortures people
15   slowly to death.
16 BW: (Moans)
17 JP: Someone in our society, in our normal society, could spend
18   the rest of her life in prison.
19 BW: (Sobs and moans)
20 JP: All because some of you down deep think it’s nice to be
21   the queen of the hop watching other people be tortured
22   and pointing their finger. (Pause) And the only way that
23   George really has a chance of getting out is if you guys
     
    10
     
1   really move towards recovery now. But the ones that are
2   leaders down there, that think they’re queen of the hop,
3   come up here and work with me. So that you can get better
4   and you can help George get better. He’s only ten years
5   old, you expect him to do his treatment all on his own.
6   All on his own. In total isolation, from any information
7   from you. You’d rather be queen of the hop than help your
8   own son.
9 BW: That’s not true.
10 JP: That’s true, that’s true. That’s what you’re doing.
11 BW: I’m not, what...
12 JP: ...Yes. Yes.
13 BW: What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?
14 JP: Here we go. That’s another one.
15 BW: What kind of information do you want me to give you?
16 JP: I want, I want the leaders out to work with me in therapy.
17   And I want the others that are helpless and hopeless and
18   don’t know what to do, and are disorganized and confused
19   and have amnesia, not to work with me right now. It
20   certainly hasn’t worked so far. (Pause) And if you all
21   down deep aren’t willing to work, then we can just throw
22   the towel in. We can just forget it. If we can help the
23   big queen of the hop in doing whatever you think the
     
    11
     
1   mother has for you, in store for you, is far more
2   important than ever helping George. (Pause) And keeping
3   the cult secret is far more important than helping George.
4   God forbid you tell a cult secret. (Pause) George is
5   nothing, he’s an expendable. He’s not. Not enough of you
6   love him and care about him, not enough of you. Some of
7 JP: you really do. Not enough of you do. (Pause) And those
8   parts down deep can come up. (Pause) Where are they?
9   The ones in charge?
10 BW: (Moan) I just...
11 JP: ...Where are they? Where are they?
12 BW: But please...
13 JP: Where are they? They, they’re not out of control
14   people, they’re in control people. I’ve never met leaders
15   that are out of control. (Pause) You are the only
16   patient I’m working with that isn’t getting well. You’re
17   the only person I’m working with whose leaders don’t,
18   haven’t figured out, aren’t smart enough, to go ahead and
19   get treatment. (Pause)
20 BW: Okay.
21 JP: And don’t say one more time, what do you want. Don’t even
22   bother. (UI) go back to all your old recordings In
23   sessions (UI) I want to talk to the leaders. I want to
     
    12
     
1   talk to somebody in charge. Who knows about what to do
2   with this body, and programing.
3 BW: Okay, I, I, somebody, and I don’t know who, I remember at
4   (UI) Easter time, and going to Barbara, (UI). (Pause) When
5   I got there, I stepped out into the family room, (UI)
6   And I tried to (UI)
7   That’s where you’re all going back. That’s where you’re
8   all going back unless you bring out the ones that know.
9   And if you’re all behind the barrier, you can all come
10   out.
11 BW: But ah...
12 JP: ...That’s a fiction, just like the rest of it, about George
13   and everything else.
14 BW: Everything I told you is beyond me. They know, everything
15   I do from morning to...
16 JP: ...That’s a fiction too, that they know everything. Sure,
17   if you do what they programed in sure they can get (UI)
18   so you fear Mom and Dad and the family are without help.
19   How about the rest of your life with them? That’s going
20   to be it, I don’t have to spend my life with them, thank
21   god. You do. You’re choosing now, what’s it going to be?
22   Walking down in one family room after another and seeing
23   Mom and Dad, or sending somebody up to really work on
     
    13
     
1   stuff now. Consistently work on stuff. Not flit in and
2   flit out and I’ll finally work with you later.
3   Consistently. Will really get this act together. Who’s
4   going to do it? (Pause) I’m going to stop asking.
5   (Pause)
6 BW: It might be Rosalyn or it might not be. Rosalyn is the
7   one that represents (UI) being so cold, and so calculated.
8 JP: Who is in charge all the time? (UI) tell me. And she
9   should be out there right now, does the cult ever wait?
10 BW: No.
11 JP: Then shit!
12 BW: I don’t know what you call him, but this is, this, this is
13   an alter who, who...the worst things you can think about,
14   the worse things you can see. The most cruel things that
15   can come out of your mouth. The worse things you can do.
16   This is an alter who, who...
17 JP: ...Come out here...
18 BW: ...but if I come out here, it won’t be safe.
19 JP: Come on.
20 BW: I don’t want to hurt you because you won’t (crying)...
21 JP: ...No, you’re not going to hurt me. Louie’s right here.
22   (UI)
23 BW: I need to just let go and go crazy.
     
    14
     
1 JP: No, you were told you were going to go crazy.
2 BW: But I know, you know, I’ll just have to...
3 JP: ...I’ll take care of you.
4 BW: Is that okay?
5 JP: (UI)
6 BW: Because that’s what you want me to do, isn’t it?
7 JP: No, it’s what you’re telling me to do. You’re not doing
8   people pleasing, we’re doing what we need to do in
9   therapy...
10 BW: ...Cause if I...
11 JP: ...let that alter out...let that alter out...
12 BW: You won’t say tomorrow, you were out of control?
13 JP: No. No. You are doing it here in session with me haven’t
14   I told you that?
15 BW: Somebody hold down my head.
16 JP: Somebody hold down her head.
17   (Pause)
18 BW: I wanna, I wanna to, I wanna (UI) can’t be, I wanna kill
19   you.
20 JP: Come on out. Come on out.
21 BW: I am so (sobbing) ...
22 JP: Come on out.
     
    15
     
1 BW: ...I am so angry (crying) I did what you wanted me to do,
2   I did every, I did everything you wanted me to do. And I
3   did it well and you, you, and you promised me that you...
4 JP: ...Come on out, all the way out.
5 BW: I hate you. (Screaming and crying) Ahhh!! You, you made
6   it so I would, you made it so, you made it so I would
7   never get better and that’s okay. But then you made so
8   that my son would never get better, and that’s not okay!
9   Ah, you ruined me! You, and he’s not, and he’s gonna get
10   better, he’s gonna get better.
11 JP: Who’s gonna help him get better? Who’s behind you?
12 BW: I’m going to help him get better.
13 JP: Who’s behind you? Who’s in control that’s behind you?
14   Come on. Come on, let out all your feelings. Let them
15   out. All the way out. All the way out.
16 BW: All these people are going to help me.
17 JP: This is out of control? This is out of control?
18 BW: (Screaming) All these people are going to help me.
19   They’re going to hold me down.
20 JP: Uh-huh.
21 BW: They’re gonna hold me down and they’re gonna let me
22   scream...
23 JP: ...That’s right...
     
    16
     
1 BW: ...And I’m going to tell, I don’t know what I’m going to
2   tell...
3 JP: ...Go ahead...
4 BW: ...All the, all the things that are going by my mind.
5 JP: Go ahead, let it out, scream it’s okay.
6 BW: (Screams several times, moans) If I could kill you, I
7   would. (UI) and I would (UI).
8 JP: And whose face would you peel back? (Pause) Whose face?
9 Whose face?
10 BW: My mom.
11 JP: Your mom.
12 BW: But she wasn’t there, but she knew about it.
13 JP: She knew.
14 BW: She knew.
15 JP: That’s right.
16 BW: And she let me go week after week...
17 JP: Everybody feel me. Who wants to come out to me and work
18   then so you don’t have to go back to that person whose
19 face you want to skin.
20   (TAPE ENDS)
     
    17

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