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USA v. Peterson, et al. Trial, Month 5 - January 1999

Thursday, January 7, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.


Catherine S. C. is on the witness stand

The trial was scheduled to resume on January 5, 1999 after the Christmas break but because a juror was ill the trial did not resume until today. Before the trial starts, Judge Werlein’s case manager Phyllis Baker is in the courtroom chatting with the lawyers. She says, "Believe it or not I missed you guys." This was a feeling that everyone seems to share. The trial has gone on so long that it has almost become like a workplace and all the participants are coworkers. Throughout the trial the prosecution lawyers and the defense lawyers laugh, joke and carry on normal conversations when the court is not in session.

Attendance for the trial continues to be low. At the start of the day there were only 4 people in the observation area of the courtroom.

The days court session starts and Judge Ewing Werlein, Jr. tells Government Attorney Eastepp that he can continue his questioning of Catherine S. C.. It appeared that Eastepp had just about finished his examination of Catherine before the Christmas break. So it was not a surprise when Eastepp had only three more questions for the witness.

EASTEPP: How were your Christmas holidays?

CATHERINE: Real good.

EASTEPP: Are you still suffering from MPD?

CATHERINE: No.

EASTEPP: Did you ever have MPD?

CATHERINE: No.

EASTEPP: I pass the witness.

Attorney Rusty Harden starts the questioning for the defense.

HARDIN: Do you remember what you testified to so far in your testimony back last year?

CATHERINE: Yes - but not clearly.

Hardin starts by asking about the deposition that she gave back on January 3, 1994. Catherine testifies that she gave her deposition first and then her mother, Lucy Abney, gave her deposition later. Catherine said that she had not read any of the other depositions.

In January 1994 Catherine was living at home (with her mother and stepfather) in Houston. She had returned home in September, 1993. She had left SSG in December 1992 and she lived in two halfway houses in Houston before she moved to the Waco Center for Youth in early March. After the Waco Center she moved for two months to the [Mary Lee ?] Foundation in Austin. She stayed there for two months and then eloped [ran away] with another female. They went to Midland, Texas and Catherine was in Midland when she contacted her mother. It was at that point she returned to Houston.

HARDIN: Did you call your father [Edward S.]?

CATHERINE: No.

Catherine added that she may have called her father around this time but she doesn’t remember. Catherine said that she stayed with the Abney’s for 6 months. She then moved in with a girlfriend somewhere around June or July. Catherine was working at a Jason’s deli and she worked there for a year.

Catherine said that she met the attorney Paul Welner when she returned to Houston and she spoke with him quite often in preparation for the lawsuit. Catherine said that she, her mother and her stepfather talked "quite a bit" about treatment at SSG.

HARDIN: In the fall of 1993 you, your mother and stepfather agreed, [didn’t you]?

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: Why did you change your mind?

CATHERINE: I started to read my old journals.

HARDIN: What was it about reading your old journals?

CATHERINE: I had no memory of anything that was written in the journals.

HARDIN: You believe what your mother says about [these memories being implanted]?

CATHERINE: Yes

Catherine was asked for a specific memory that was implanted by the therapists. She could not.

CATHERINE: If these memories were true I would remember them now. I concluded it was the treatment that I received.

HARDIN: You have made up things before.

CATHERINE: Yes.

Hardin then questions her about her early childhood habits of stealing and lying. Catherine said that she stole things that were in lost and found when she was in kindergarten but she stopped when she grew older.

HARDIN: Your grades were a source of conflict between you and your stepfather.

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: You were punished?

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: How often?

CATHERINE: Every time I got a report card.

HARDIN: How many years did it happen?

CATHERINE: Two or three.

Hardin compliments Catherine by saying she is bright. He then asks if her behavior was a form of rebellion.

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: Do you feel that there were mistakes [made by mother and stepfather]?

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: Is that one of the reasons you went to live with your real father?

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: By the time you were 11 you wanted out. Your stepfather was very angry and verbally abusive. You went to live with your father.

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: At the time you went to live with your father your relationship with LT was very bad.

CATHERINE: Yes.

Hardin reminds Catherine that in January she testified that Castleberry had actually raped her. It was shortly before the current trial that Catherine came to the conclusion that the rape did not occur.

Hardin then reviews the time she had spent with the government in preparation for the trial. She testified that she was contacted in August by Debbie Ganaway. She was sent a copy of her deposition and a subpoena to appear as a witness. She later came down for 6 days in October where she spent 5 hours per day listening to audio tapes of the therapy sessions. She said that she first met Eastepp after the trial had started. She indicated that she had 3 or 4 meetings with government lawyers in October and again in November.

HARDIN: What material did you see?

CATHERINE: My deposition, transcripts and tapes.

Catherine said that she spent a total of about 15 hours with Eastepp going over medical records (mostly from SSG). She said that she went over a 2 or 3 inch stack of copies of pages from her journals. Catherine said that she had copies of her journals. She said that she has not had the originals since 1993. The originals were given to the lawyers handling the lawsuit. Catherine said that she had spent a total of about 30 hours getting ready to testify.

HARDIN: Did you read any of the Cypress Creek records?

CATHERINE: Some of them.

Hardin asked about changes in her testimony since her 1994 deposition.

CATHERINE: The abuse that happened at my dad’s house was the main thing. She said that she thinks her memory [for what happened] is better now than it was in 1994.

HARDIN: I’m curious. Is the reason you are [rest of question was not recorded]?

CATHERINE: I remember that I was not raped.

HARDIN: When did you begin to tell people...

CATHERINE: I did not have a clear picture of what rape actually was.

Catherine said that after she ran away from her father and went to the shelter in Louisiana she told the people at the shelter she had been raped.

HARDIN: Was it a deliberate lie?

CATHERINE: No.

Hardin got Catherine to agree that a 14 year old would know. He talks about her acting out.

HARDIN: Are you capable of talking yourself into believing things that are not true?

CATHERINE: Yes.

Catherine testified that she was checked into Cypress Creek Hospital on December 12, 1991 and she met Dr. Seward on December 13, 1991. She said that she met Dr. Peterson when she was in the hospital at Cypress Creek.

Concerning the incident in 1984

HARDIN: Do you remember him [stepfather] hitting you in the face?

CATHERINE: Not clearly.

HARDIN: Is that the only time it happened?

CATHERINE: Yes

HARDIN: Would you agree that if you did not remember it would be because you had totally forgotten or suppressed the memory.

HARDIN later shows Catherine CPS records from two separate incidents where CPS was notified.

Hardin states that Catherine had said previously that at her fathers house there were drugs.

HARDIN: How do you know that you did not take drugs [at your father’s house]?

CATHERINE: I would have been addicted to it.

Hardin returns to the CPS records

HARDIN: Before I showed you this [the CPS record] you thought there was one incident. Now you are saying that there were two.

HARDIN: There are a lot of things in your life you have chosen to suppress [aren’t there]?

CATHERINE: Yes.

Hardin talks about how hard things were for Catherine. She testifies that because they moved so often she was in 7 or 8 elementary schools. Her parents were not wealthy and she was ashamed of the clothes she wore.

HARDIN: You began to cope in a certain way.

CATHERINE: Yes.

Hardin "testifies" that when Catherine gets to her father’s house she had a pretty tough two years. She had a Spartan way of life. She was taken out of school and she was not allowed to dress a certain way.

There was confusing testimony about exactly what happened when Catherine’s father found out about the molestation. It seems that for at least one of the three men Catherine’s father kicked him out of the house and asked that the man never return. For another Catherine said that her father did not believe her.

Catherine said that she and her father had regained a relationship. By fall 1993 they had made up.

Catherine said that she does not recall any suicide attempts before the one that led to her admission to Cypress Creek. She was told about another attempt that was written about by her mother while her mother was hospitalized at SSG.

CATHERINE: As far as I know it didn’t happen.

Catherine said that she recalls the feelings of dealing with what happened at her father’s house.

CATHERINE: I just wanted to stop what was happening.

Hardin asked how long was it that she started thinking about suicide after she went back to live with her mother and stepfather.

CATHERINE: About a month.

HARDIN: How often?

CATHERINE: I can’t say.

HARDIN: Weekly.

CATHERINE: No.

HARDIN: Monthly.

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: Sometimes more often than monthly.

CATHERINE: Yes.

Fondling abuse at her father’s home Catherine testified that she was first abused by Brad. Later Brad moved out (or forced to leave). She was then abused in the same manner by Gary and Bill.

HARDIN: How often did it happen?

CATHERINE: A lot.

Because of the abuse Catherine starting having thoughts of suicide. She considered different ways that she could do it. At this point Catherine is wiping tears from her eyes on the witness stand.

Hardin pauses and then changes the subject.

HARDIN: When did you first read Sybil?

CATHERINE: About a year and a half before Cypress Creek. I also saw the movie.

HARDIN: You share your love of reading with your mother.

CATHERINE: Yes.

Hardin brings up the movie "Prince of Tides". He notes that the movie was on TV again over the holidays. He wants to know if Catherine saw it. She said that she did. They talk about the movie and the book.

CATHERINE: It was not appropriate to have the book on the unit.

Catherine says that she was on Unit E when she read the book.

HARDIN: Did you see it as a love story?

CATHERINE: No.

---------break----------

Catherine states that her date of birth was November 3, 1975.

Hardin then reviews with Catherine what happened when she ran away from her father. She was 11 years old when she went Baton Rouge to live with her father Edward S.. Sometime in 1988 she ran away and lived in a shelter for 3 days. When she ran away she did not know where she was going but she was picked up by the police about 3 blocks from her fathers house. It was in the middle of the night. She said that she walked out the front door carrying her possessions in 4 duffel bags. When the police asked her where she was going she responded that she had run away and didn’t want to go home. Catherine said that at the time she had no idea how to call her mother. She said that she had not seen her mother in a year and one half. Catherine said that her mother was not the mothering type. She said that she did not give you hugs and was not warm. She said that at the time she ran away she thought her mother was angry for her running away in the first place.

HARDIN: Would you agree that it was not a good position for a 13 year old?

CATHERINE: Yes.

HARDIN: Did you discuss with [your sister] Karen what had happened at your father’s house?

CATHERINE: Never.

HARDIN: Did you cope on your own?

CATHERINE: Pretty much.

HARDIN: What about Dr. Gee?

CATHERINE: I don’t remember him. I only saw him once or twice.

HARDIN: Did you reach a state where you thought about suicide almost daily?

CATHERINE: For a little while.

HARDIN: By the time you reached Houston you had never told anyone about the abuse.

CATHERINE: That’s true.

HARDIN: Did you have thoughts about suicide before Baton Rouge?

CATHERINE: No.

HARDIN: How long did you stay in Georgia?

CATHERINE: Less than one year.

HARDIN: How long did you live in Houston before Cypress Creek?

CATHERINE: Maybe a year. Could have been longer.

Catherine said that she only had one close friend. Her name was Debbie and she lived in the same apartment.

Catherine said that she was 15 or 16 when she graduated from the 8th grade she must have thought she had MPD before she saw Dr. Billings.

[From this point until the end of the notes for January 7, the trial is summed in commentary.

[In one of the records that Hardin focused on the nurse had written that Catherine said that she developed a split personality after reading the book "Sybil" a year and one half before Cypress Creek. The note was written about 3 hours after Catherine was admitted to the hospital. At one point Catherine was trying to convey that what she was communicating to the nurses was that if she had a split personality it must have occurred after she had read the book Sybil. In his questions Hardin does not allow this possible interpretation of the nurses note and Catherine finally gave in to Hardin’s interpretation.

[Hardin continues to get concessions throughout the day. He appears to do this by first getting Catherine to again take on the role of a victim, destroying confidence in her own memory of what happened and then arguing and calling attention to places where her testimony is inconsistent with records, etc..

[Hardin continues for the remainder of the day to concentrate on what Catherine said and did before she arrived at SSG. His effort is to show that Catherine brought all her problems to SSG and the therapists at SSG were not responsible for her problems. He also uses Catherine to amplify problems that existed in the Abney family.

[Hardin avoids discussing what went on in therapy sessions with Dr. Seward. He avoids discussing what went on at SSG.

[The main thrust of the defense is (1) to attempt to show that the patients were "train wrecks" (words used in Hardin’s opening statement) before they arrived at SSG and (2) they already had their ideas (MPD, SRA, etc) before they were treated by those on trial.]

Monday, January 11, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.


[This was a long day in court, even though Judge Werlein dismissed the session at 4:30. Richard Hayes continued on the witness stand with direct examination by government attorney Quincy Ollison for thirty minutes. Cross-examination of Hayes by defense attorneys Rusty Hardin and Larry Finder took the rest of the day. Richard Hayes appeared to be an experienced nurse, articulate, and dedicated to his profession. His testimony seemed to be given with care and deliberation.] After Larry Finder, Mueck’s attorney, questioned whether Spring Shadows Glen knew that the restraints that Richard Hayes and Ollison had previously shown to the jury had been taken off their property, the court convened without the jury for a few minutes. Ollison addressed the judge and explained that Hayes had borrowed the set of restraints. The hospital often loaned restraints. This was not unusual.

Larry Finder: We have a right to know.

After the jury filed in, Ollison reviewed the discussion from Friday about restraints and how many times Hayes had called the Texas Dept. of Mental Health and Retardation. Ollison asked Hayes to explain the types of restraints.

Hayes explained that there are mechanical restraints (cords that are used to tie the patient), physical restraints ( people holding the patient), and seclusion (locked padded rooms). Hayes said that the hospital had some secluded areas.

OLLISON: Were the abreaction sessions in compliance with the guidelines?

Hardin objected and the objection was sustained.

OLLISON: Using the guidelines, describe the manner in which Lynn Carl was restrained.

HAYES: It was not for protection of self.

OLLISON: Did Unit E experience staffing problems?

HAYES: Yes.

OLLISON: Did you know the six nurses who left?

HAYES: Yes.

OLLISON: These were people who couldn’t work in Unit E because they were not safe - they triggered patients - they were cult members.

Hardin objects.

Hayes testified that he had met with Peterson and she identified some staff members who were cult members. He had talked to Peterson about staffing. He said that Peterson told him that she would talk to Mueck. She knew the bottom line with Mueck rubbing her fingers together. This meant money. (Hayes demonstrated). It meant that Mueck understood money.

OLLISON: Why did you go to Chicago?

HAYES: I went to a conference on MPD. Peterson, Seward, and Delaney also went.

OLLISON: Do you recall Sally McDonald? What effect did her firing have on you?

HAYES: Chilling.

OLLISON: Did you meet with Seward?

HAYES: There were several meetings with Seward. One meeting Seward told me not to sit that way in front of patients because it showed that I was in a high position in the cult. (Hayes demonstrated.)

January 19, 1993 Richard Hayes turned in his resignation from the MPD unit to Mary Anne Baughman.

HAYES: I wanted no part of it, the care of patients by Peterson, Seward and Keraga. I was transferred to another part of the hospital.

At 9:40 the witness is passed to Rusty Hardin, Defense attorney for Dr. Peterson, for the cross-examination.

HARDIN: Do you remember being interviewed at SSG where you claimed you had no personal knowledge of this matter? (Hardin doesn’t wait for an answer.) Would it be fair to say that you didn’t like Dr. Peterson?

HAYES: No.

HARDIN: Did she care about her patients?

HAYES: No, not a 100 percent of the time.

HARDIN: Did you like Dr. Seward?

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: Do you still like Dr. Seward?

HAYES: I have no reason not to.

HARDIN: Did he care about his patients?

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: Did the nurses care for their patients?

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: Did you feel that they were people you could talk to?

HAYES: No.

HARDIN: On what occasion did you talk to Dr. Peterson about her treatment.

HAYES: I didn’t talk to Peterson, Seward, or Keraga about their treatment.

HARDIN: Do you think you had a bias against this treatment?

HAYES: Yes, I had a bias.

HARDIN: Do you think your bias could affect the things you see?

Hardin doesn’t wait for an answer. He moves to the subject of when and where Richard Hayes talked to the government. He spends considerable time on this. He wanted to know the dates, and to whom Hayes talked How long was the meeting, and what was discussed. The questions were rapid. It seemed that the faster Hardin went the slower Hayes replied. Hayes seemed to have difficulty coming up with the exact dates. He knew he talked to the FBI after the indictment. He knew that he first talked to someone on the phone. He had another phone call about two weeks later and then met with the FBI in the FBI building. Then Hardin asks if Hayes remembers Pam Rogers.

HAYES: No.

HARDIN: Do you recall Pam Rogers?

HAYES: No.

HARDIN: Were you the interim nurse manager of Unit E?

HAYES: I was the temporary nurse manager.

HARDIN: Did you have any training in MPD, any inservice training?

HAYES: No.

HARDIN: You had no training in MPD when you took over as nurse manager?

HAYES: True, the nurse manager is an administrative position. The duties are different than a nurse.

HARDIN: Peterson felt that the nurses needed more training in MPD.

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: The implication is that you didn’t like abreaction sessions. You could have learned more if you had gone to more of them.

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: Most nurses had no background in MPD or hypnosis.

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: You didn’t believe in MPD.

HAYES: No. I didn’t.

HARDIN: Would you agree with me that when a nursing staff does not agree with the doctor’s philosophy there is more tension. The nurses feel that they are with the patients longer and that they know more than the doctors. Were there many nurses that didn’t believe in MPD or hypnosis?

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: The nurses were resistant. Peterson had no administrative control. She could rant and rage.

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: At a staff meeting Peterson wanted more staff. Is that unusual? She tells you how to get it. Give me the words she said? She was going to talk to Jerry Mueck because she knows what the bottom line what the bottom line is with Mueck. When did this occur?

HAYES: Sometime in November, 1992.

HARDIN: What led to that?

HAYES: It was an event with Lynn Carl. She was going to be moved to another unit.

HARDIN: She said to you. Tell me everything. Your impression of that -- Is it possible that your bias colors how you interpret what Dr. Peterson said?

June 24, 1992 Nurses’ Charting Inservice: The nurses were told to chart according to the GAP rating. Peterson and Pam Rogers were at the meeting. Hardin tells Hayes that Pam Rogers worked for an insurance company and not the hospital. She told the nurses what the insurance company wanted for this type of case.

HARDIN: Who recorded this meeting. The minutes were not signed.

HAYES: I don’t remember.

HARDIN: Isn’t it more likely that it is Pam Rogers who is telling the nurses how to chart, and not Dr. Peterson? They were told to chart behavior according the GAP scale. Would you agree with me that this is the way this reads?

HAYES: The objections of the nurses were that they wanted things in the charts that the nurses didn’t see.

HARDIN: Tell me specific times when Dr. Peterson or Seward told you to chart things you didn’t see?

HAYES: Dr. Peterson said nurses needed to chart suicidal or self destructive behavior so that we can keep them in the hospital.

HARDIN: They never said, "Even if you don’t see." We’re talking about perception, not reality. You carried what you saw further when they talked to you about charting.

HARDIN: Have you ever seen switching?

HAYES: Yes, I saw someone change.

HARDIN: The person doing the charting is trying to let the staff know what’s going on. Whoever’s going to pay the bill needs specific information. The people charting should chart everything they see. The doctors said chart everything you see.

HAYES: I don’ t recall that.

HARDIN: (Holds up a sheet of paper.) Is it true that you can’t recall a time when you were told to chart something that you didn’t see.

HAYES: Not specifically.

HARDIN: (Places the minutes of a meeting on patient’s confidentiality on the overhead.) Peterson is concerned about objectively charting acute data. Important data must be added when it is observed. Doesn’t this mean that the doctors need more detail?

HAYES: If they exhibit the behavior you should chart it.

HARDIN: Nurses were not trained in MPD. Never attended an abreaction session. They thought the doctors wanted them to chart what they didn’t see. These people didn’t believe in cults, MPD. Wouldn’t they misinterpret according to their biases?

HARDIN: Do you recall how sick Lynn Carl was?

HAYES: What is sick?

HARDIN: Do you agree that she had many problems?

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: Did you always chart the things you were suppose to?

HAYES: I hope I did.

HARDIN: I am looking at one where you didn’t. Do you remember a session with Kristi Carl on 9/21/92. She came to Unit E for an abreaction session and tried to hurt herself.

HAYES: I made an entry about it. When the session was going on, if I wasn’t needed I would leave.

HARDIN: Why did you get called into that session?

HAYES: She was exhibiting some anger.

HARDIN: (Showing Hayes some medical records from Kristi’s file.) Identify for me.

HAYES: (Reads an entry in Kristi’s chart written by him.) Patient attempted to hurt herself. Patient was held 25 minutes. Patient was escorted back to her room. She was alert after her session.

HARDIN: This charting was not adequate for this behavior.

HAYES: The things being said by the patient were being charted by the therapists. There were discussions that therapists would chart what patient said in therapy.

HARDIN: Was Joan Russell a good nurse?

HAYES: She was average.

2/18/92 Kristi Carl therapy session. Patient arrived at Unit E accompanied by Trish Taylor. Her pockets were searched. Two paper clips and a shard of mirror were found. Animals 1, 2, and 3 (alters) tried to bite her. Required help from Nurse Hayes. Patient was physically restrained. Patient scratched her left hand superficially. Nurse’s note was based on this therapy.

HAYES: Nurse Russell hadn’t heard that; she wasn’t to chart in therapy sessions.

HARDIN: This was the work of an average nurse?

Hardin spends the next hour and a half questioning Hayes about some six or eight different sessions where he was called in to help with patients out of control. Harden asked how many restraints were used; who was conducting the session; how many people were in the room; and had he charted that he had been there. Hayes kept saying that he had attended so many sessions of this kind that he couldn’t remember the details.

HARDIN: When did you take the pictures of manikin in the various restraints.

HAYES: It was sometime in December.

HARDIN: How did you get the restraints?

HAYES: As a staff developer I use them for teaching demonstrations. So I borrowed the restraints in November.

HARDIN: At whose request?

HAYES: I can’t remember who suggested it.

HARDIN: Whom do they belong to? Why didn’t you go to your supervisor?

HAYES: I was free to use them in my position.

Hardin tries to show that Hayes was improper to borrow the restraints to show the jury. Hardin passes the witness to Chris Flood, Seward’s attorney.

CHRIS FLOOD: Did you get along with Dr. Seward?

Hayes answered that he did. Hayes had made a complaint to Dr. Seward about the amount of restraints that were used. Seward answered that it was for patient protection.

Afternoon break- ----------------------------------

Larry Finder, attorney for Jerry Mueck, takes over. He puts 6 or 8 new pages into evidence.

FINDER: You became Nurse Manager in June, 1992. How long had you been at the hospital?

HAYES: I had worked for the hospital for nine years.

FINDER: Would you agree that Jerry Mueck tries to find a solution. If he can identify the problem he forms a committee. In 1992 he formed a special committee of nurses. They felt that they were not a part of the team, not valued. This was a communication problem at the time. In the last paragraph of this report it lists the members: Peterson, Seward, Mary Baughman, and a nurse from each unit.

Finder passes a copy of each document to everyone from a folder. As he picks up the one they have just read and places that in another folder. He keeps talking the whole time. It is so smooth that it is difficult to pay attention to what is being said.

Finder passed out a chart of all the meetings called, and who attended. There was a MPD committee consisting of Carol Smith, sociologist, Peterson, Seward, Baughman, Hayes.

On 9/21/92 there was a long memo. Finder read parts of it to the jury. Mr. Mueck’s purpose was to work to hit the middle ground. "We need to know what the problems are." Mueck directed the nurses to "write their concerns and Dr. Peterson will sit down and try to solve the problem. We must strive for quality care."

FINDER: Would you agree with me that Mr. Mueck was trying to solve the problems?

Finder read a long section on by-laws. There were a number of committees. There was a patient’s rights task force that worked to get the patients the right to use the telephone, and to send and receive mail. There was a committee to monitor the use of restraints. There was committee for patient education or orientation when they were admitted.

The court was dismissed at 4:30.

Tuesday, January 12, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.


The cross-examination and recross of the witness Richard Hayes took about twenty percent of this day in court. Larry Finder and Dan Cogdell were lawyers for the defense, and Quincy Ollison for the prosecution. A new witness, Joe Carl, was on the stand for the remainder of the day. Larry Eastepp did the discovery examination. Joe Carl is the husband of the patient, Lynn, and father of patients, BJ and Kristi. All will be witnesses. Larry Finder continues the cross-examination of Richard Hayes.

9/17/92 Document 2270: Hayes made a presentation that there was a comparative increase in the use of voluntary restraints. Patient rights were monitored. Voluntary restraints were used 98 percent of the time. However, when procedures were not being followed, they were probably not reported. Patients’ rights had not been monitored for 6 months.

The physician’s orders for restrictions on mail and telephone had to be reviewed every seven days. If a patient requests restrictions they can be removed whenever the patient wants them to be. This was followed 100 percent of time. When asked Hayes said he doesn’t remember if 100 percent meant that their goal had been met, or whether it was followed 100 percent of the time.

Finder reads a long list of psychologists and psychiatrists who had patients at SSG from the document. He reads that Mary Ann Baughman reported a decrease in the use of restraints and that someone claimed a hospital in Boston and Rush Presbyterian Hospital in Chicago find restraints very helpful.

Document 2135: Notes from an executive committee headed by Dr. Davida, Medical Director of SSG. Davida said in regard to the use of voluntary restraints, that they should stop using them in therapy sessions with MPD patients. Patients must give consent. All policies are being revised. Dr. Reed said that they could be used, if used appropriately. A task force was formed to develop the new policy. Dr. Davida wanted nurses, psychologists, and psychiatrists to be on the committee.

Document 2215 12/15/92 Minutes of Nurses Meeting: Hayes was present at this meeting. All restraints were being used less in the Dissociative Disorder Unit. All staff is being educated in [a program for restraining patients who are out of control] techniques.

Finder passed the witness to Dan Cogdell, lawyer for Sylvia Davis.

COGDELL: Do you have some general information about MPD? History of experiencing traumatic incidences. One of the theories behind MPD is that the patient makes an alter who can coexist with the person. Abreaction sessions are the general processing for reliving the experience.

HAYES: Patient would try to bring past memories into consciousness.

COGDELL: You have witnessed some of abreaction sessions?

HAYES: Yes.

COGDELL: Were you aware of the kind of abuse Lynn Carl had as a child?

HAYES: No.

COGDELL: You didn’t know any of her history.

HAYES: That’s right. Information may have come out that she was sexually abused by brother.

COGDELL: She was raped by her brother, over and over again. Ran out in the street naked. Impregnated either by a friend of brother or her grandfather. The fetus was buried on the family farm. She had years trying to deal with this. She self-mutilated, and was suicidal. The abreaction session with Lynn Carl was with voluntary restraints.

Cogdell passes the witness to Ollison, government attorney.

OLLISON: Did Lynn Carl’s behavior warrant these restraints?

Hardin objects. Objection sustained.

OLLISON: Were the restraints warranted:

HAYES: The number of restraints were not.

OLLISON: The question Cogdell asked you, "Why did you meet with Ms Grant?"

HAYES: Mary Baughman asked me to talk to her.

OLLISON: You indicated that you had some bias against two people, Dr. Peterson and Dr. Seward?

HAYES: Yes, their lack of professional behavior with the nurses, and refusing to talk about the pros and cons of their treatment. OLLISON: What about hypnosis?

HAYES: There are some things hypnosis that I agree with, and some that I don’t.

OLLISON: Peterson and Seward said that the nurses should chart more. Looking at 9/21/92 2:35 p.m. Nurse’s entry: "Patient participates happily and laughing. When asked if she felt safe, she didn’t reply. She kept working on her homework. Discussed her anxiety about the session."

HAYES: Nurses should chart what they observe.

OLLISON: 9/21/92 the same day, but at 11:00 p.m. Nurse’s entry: "Patient vacillates between quiet and sad to sarcastic. No suicidal behavior." What should be charted?

HAYES: Behavior that was seen by the nursing staff.

OLLISON: Reads from Peterson’s therapy notes: "Dangerous parts came to therapy. Patient said she wanted neck restraint for animal alters. Patient amnesic to the therapy session."

Hayes said that he believes that Kristi was under hypnosis.

OLLISON: Hardin asked you about training for nurses.

HAYES: They were trained by the hospital in addition to their other training.

Exhibit 784: Ollison asks if Hayes recognizes this document? It is the list of training for nurses between 1990-1992. There were six pages of training sessions for the nurses. Not all of them were well attended. Ollison asked why the nurses didn’t attend, and Hayes did not know. Ollison points out that there were a number of training sessions.

HARDIN: Only a physician could give the order for restraints?

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: Did you tell Ollison that it wasn’t whether restraints should be used, but how many should be used?

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: In your view, you didn’t know what was happening when you got into sessions?

HAYES: Yes.

HARDIN: Nurses didn’t want to go to conferences and didn’t want to be trained in MPD.

HAYES: There were some that were resistant.vJoe Carl was sworn in as a witness.

EASTEPP: How long have you been married?

JOE CARL: I have been married twice, to the same woman. We were divorced in 1979. We have two children, BJ (Brian) now 21, and Kristi now 19. BJ is now married and has one child, and expecting a second.

EASTEPP: Where were you living when the children were born?

JOE CARL: We were living in Austin. I worked for an insurance company, a fraternal company. I did both selling and management. It is like life insurance. I was with the company for 10 years. Then I helped a friend in a body shop, and then for a cable company, Time Warner, for 13 years. I sold commercial services to hospitals, hotels, etc. We lived in Austin, and Lynn stayed home with the children. She was very active with the kids, PTA, school projects, Little League. The children had many activities. BJ loved basketball, baseball and band. He dropped out of school his freshman year in high school. Both children had a lot of friends. Kristi was also active in sports. She was very good in softball. She was also in band. I coached Little League and was active in school activities.

EASTEPP: Was there a point in time that your wife had problems?

JOE CARL: She was full of sadness that she just couldn’t get rid of. Her mother died in 1980. She never stopped being there for the children.

EASTEPP: Did you get medical help?

JOE CARL: She started seeing a therapist. Then in 1985 she saw a psychiatrist, Dr. Custer. She worked with him until she came to SSG in 1991. She felt she should have resolved some of the differences with her mother. She had an older brother who molested her a couple of times. We saw him one time when we went to California. She also had twin brothers. One of the twins we see often.

EASTEPP: Were these the only problems?

JOE CARL: There were times when she was more troubled than others. She had some manic times when she hardly slept. Jane Coloveto(?) , therapist saw both Joe and Lynn. Joe was frustrated and didn’t know how to work and keep the family together. Lynn was on medication. She was better when she was on medication. There was short time Lynn wasn’t in therapy during 1985 and 1991.

EASTEPP: During this time period how did you handle your job?

JOE CARL: Well.

EASTEPP: How many hospitalizations?

JOE CARL: About ten, Lynn was so sad, suicidal the doctor would put her into the hospital. Usually she would come out better. They would adjust her medicine. She attempted suicide twice, once over medication. Lynn was drinking, walked out of the door and got lost, and cut her wrists. Jane found her at a church. She was hospitalized over night.

EASTEPP: What did the children know?

JOE CARL: They knew she was depressed. They adjusted and worked harder at what they were doing and tried to be more helpful.

EASTEPP: Did you know about MPD?

JOE CARL: No

EASTEPP: Did you know about alters?

JOE CARL: Yes

EASTEPP: Did you now about satanic cults?

JOE CARL: I had heard that there were a group of people into sex and drugs. They cut up people and sacrificed animals.

Joe Carl said that each time Lynn got out of the hospital she seemed to be better. In 1991 Dr. Custer called in Dr. Adams, a psychologist for a consultation. Joe Carl found out later that it was a test for MPD. Dr. Custer and Dr. Adams suggested that Lynn should be sent to Rush Presbyterian Hospital in Chicago, and SSG in Houston to work with Dr. Peterson. They told him that Peterson was an expert. Joe Carl was looking for someone who could help his wife. He had never heard of SSG or Dr. Peterson.

EASTEPP: Had you ever seen different personalities?

JOE CARL: No.

Lynn and Joe drove to Houston on Sunday. Both of them were apprehensive. The children thought that their mother was going for some testing. She took a picture of her father to put in her room.

EASTEPP: Who did you see?

JOE CARL: We came down to see Dr. Peterson. We were lucky to get an appointment.

EASTEPP: What did you know about Dr. Raymond?

JOE CARL: He would be there if she needed him.

EASTEPP: Did she have physical problems?

JOE CARL: Sometimes during 1971 and 1991 she would have to be in a wheel chair.

EASTEPP: (Projects an insurance document on the screen.) June 1990 to December 1992. Joe Carl’s insurance policy allowed 90 days of inpatient hospitalization for mental illness. After 90 days the insurance paid 80 percent of the cost. Outpatient care $5000. Maximum benefit was one million dollars. In 1991 the insurance handler switched to Travelers. In January 1, 1993 the policy changed. Joe Carl’s insurance covered all of the hospitalization. He said he must have called them 20 or 30 times. He spoke to New York a lot.

Joe Carl was active in the therapy at SSG. In May, 1991 Joe Carl checked Lynn Carl into SSG. It was on a Sunday. He said "They were ready for us." Joe Carl filled out all the insurance forms. Lynn was cheerful when he left, but he cried all the way home.

5/5/91 Admission Forms by Dr. Raymond: Patient has major depression and dissociative disorder. Her chief complaint is that in Austin they couldn’t treat her problem. She is 40 years old. She heard that her son BJ may die; she heard that from an alter.

Joe Carl testified that Lynn had told him this, but it didn’t impress him. He didn’t take her seriously. They have been seeing a counselor in Dr. Adam’s office for six months before this. His name was Dr. Schultz. Joe Carl continued to see him the whole time Lynn was at SSG. He would consult with Dr. Peterson. He has sessions with Adams, Schultz and Peterson and more. He was seeing Schultz to help him cope with the separation. Joe Carl needed information about SRA. He said he was trying to make sense out of all.

Admission form: "Lynn was a danger to herself and to her son. Alters appeared, Mary 5 years old, Susie 12 years old, and Julie 20 years old." These alters were unknown to Joe Carl. He doesn’t remember seeing any cut fingers. Lynn had been hospitalized 9 times. She was just becoming aware of the sexual abuse by her brother.

Admission Form: "Depression, bipolar, borderline MPD. Multiple sclerosis. Patient said that none of her family had been in treatment. Patient has three older brothers. Memories of physical abuse by her older brother. Aware of being in cult in South Dakota. Aware of cult activities when she was in college. She dropped out because of drugs and alcohol. She had told Joe that she drank too much. She was not drinking at this time.

EASTEPP: Wasn’t there a time that you drank too much?

JOE CARL: I used to drink a lot, but I don’t have a problem stopping.

Joe Carl said that he is not a Baptist. He said that "There were times I became drunk and abusive."

Admission Form: "Patient cooperative. She had been known to cut and abuse herself. Patient is quite frightened. Suspects the smashing of the picture of her father was homicidal. Has problems remembering childhood. She is a reliable resource of memories for self. She has a good relationship with her husband. It would be helpful to help her master [ ] and make discharge plans. Discharge when she is no longer suicidal or homicidal. Might be in the hospital two months."

Psycho/Social History: Connie Moore, MA Education: Patient 40 years old. Historical information from Capitol Psychiatric Center, Austin, Texas where Lynn Carl was a patient. Joe Carl had not heard that his wife was diagnosed with MPD.

EASTEPP: Do you recall sleep deprivation?

JOE CARL: Remembered some nightmares that Lynn had. Memories of her childhood came back.

EASTEPP: Reads notes from the case history from Capitol Psychiatric Center. "Patient describes her relationship with her husband as close, but have been close to divorce many times. Describes son, good student , good at athletics. According to the patient her mother was crazy. Talks about Brother Bill. Has had no contact with brother since she confronted him with sexual abuse. She was active in PTA. Patient thinks she had MS, but the diagnosis has not been confirmed. She had been working with Janie Coloveto and Dr. Custer. Since April 91 Patient has attempted suicide nine times."

Joe Carl said he was not aware that she had tried to commit suicide nine times.

Eastepp continues to read from the case history: "Patient was a quiet child, introverted. She became pregnant at 12. Her mother bound her stomach. Her mother had slipped her into bed with her father when he came home drunk."

Lunch break-----------------

Eastepp reads the clinical impressions from the case history from Capital Psychiatric Center: "Patient had extensive physical abuse. Recently feels anger toward her son. System has levels of people, alters doing their work. No safety committee has been established."

JOE Carl: This came from Dr. Peterson.

EASTEPP reads: "Abreactive sessions are recommended.

JOE CARL: This is where this could happen safely. Debra Feleo conducted some group sessions.

EASTEPP: Were you aware that there was a connection between Feleo and Peterson?

After two weeks Joe Carl returned to Houston for a visit with Lynn. He met with Dr. Peterson. He was told that he could have no contact with his wife. He did see Lynn alone for the first visit.

JOE CARL: The visit was scary. I wanted her to come home. She said it wasn’t safe for her to come home.

EASTEPP: At this point had you discussed the treatment modality?

JOE CARL: No, but I did ask questions every time I went to SSG.

EASTEPP: What were you doing back home in Austin?

JOE CARL: Tried to continue our life. I told the children she was working to get well. I called Lynn every day. I came down every Sunday. Sometimes I saw Lynn in her bedroom, other times in the Recreation room. Sometimes I brought the children, and they told their mother about school, what they were doing, etc. It was hard on the children with their mother gone, and me gone every Sunday. Sometimes Lynn was happy and we thought she would be home soon, and other times she would be sad and we thought we would never get her home. Around March Dr. Peterson said we had to sever the contact. It is hard to describe different activities. I always questioned how could this go on. Where was I when it was going on? I was seeing Frank Schultz. I was trying hard to understand it. Joe spoke to Dr. Peterson often. He was assured that she was the expert in MPD. During the first six months I wanted so much for her to get better, but so many alters were coming up that you couldn’t get to the bottom. The kept telling me, "If you take her out she will be in danger. She isn’t safe to leave the hospital."

EASTEPP: Who told you that?

JOE CARL: " Dr. Peterson, Dr. Keraga, Sylvia Davis, and Trish Taylor.

EASTEPP: Was insurance discussed?

JOE CARL: We had discussions all the time about insurance. If I took her out she might lose insurance. I couldn’t afford to take the chance. I spoke to Mr. Mueck often.

EASTEPP: How were the children handling this?

JOE CARL: BJ was more rebellious than anything else.

EASTEPP: What support groups did you have in your life?

JOE CARL: I had no support groups, I just did the best I could.

EASTEPP: Were you concerned about the children being active in the cult?

JOE CARL: It’s highly unusual for a cult mother not to involve her children in the cult. I met with Peterson and her associates. They used sand pan work. The test took two hours. The children could still see their mother, mostly on weekends. I didn’t question Lynn’s restrictions. The doctors didn’t think she should go out.

JOE CARL: It was tough on the children. They had to work around the house. We’ve been close. They used each other a lot. They are still good friends, closer than ever, having survived what they survived. At this time we had no trouble with the grades. The grades went down when they got into the hospital.

EASTEPP: How much interaction did Lynn have with Dr. Raymond?

JOE CARL: Almost none, Peterson was in charge. I was told that Raymond was going to Dallas, and that Dr. Johnson would be her psychiatrist. He was doing little except collecting the money. Later she got with Dr. Keraga. I was glad Lynn got Keraga. She seemed to have an extensive background. Peterson determined who Lynn would work with. Dr. Keraga took over in May. I was impressed with Peterson. She had a lot of personality, a lot of drive, and was an expert. I talked to Keraga often. They were responsive to your calls. I asked questions of everybody I saw.

EASTEPP: What about money issues?

JOE CARL: Sure, Keraga talked about money often, and I would call the insurance company.

EASTEPP: What about Peterson?

JOE CARL: We discussed insurance many times. I would call the insurance company.

EASTEPP: What about the financial side?

JOE CARL: Pretty much the insurance company covered the bill. I discussed it with Mr. Mueck.

Hagerman, one of Mueck’s lawyers, objected that Joe Carl was not answering the question.

JOE CARL: I tried to see that the hospital was being paid. I was aware that a vast amounts of money was being spent and I was getting worried. In May the money was over a million. Mr. Mueck said that the money was in different categories. I was relieved.

EASTEPP: (question unclear.)

JOE CARL: BJ was approaching his 16th birthday. I was getting information from Houston that the children were not safe. I agreed to bring them down for an evaluation. BJ was to kill himself before he was 16. He was having a hard time separating from his mother. When you get into this cult thing, and were told your children are in danger, you do what you have to do. Obviously, I was believing this at the time. Dr. Peterson told me the cult is able to do all of those things. Dr. Schultz said the treatment would take a couple of weeks.

Eastepp shows Joe Carl a copy of a fax that was sent to him from Trish Taylor. In the fax she tells Joe to get the attached information to Dr. Adams before the family session on Thursday night. Attached to the fax were copies of Lynn’s journal. An alter, Jackie, said that Kristi had been programmed to excel, and there was a picture of BJ in a coffin. Jackie was probably the programmer.

EASTEPP: How long were you planning on leaving the children in Houston?

JOE CARL: About two weeks, the big question was why?

EASTEPP: Do you recall Dr Raymond?

JOE CARL: I went to see him.

EASTEPP: Was there any discussion about Kristi.

JOE CARL: I don’t remember.

Eastepp reads and projects the Admission form 6/8/92: "BJ Carl, a 15 year old boy from Austin. Admission diagnosis: MPD , Post traumatic syndrome, suicidal, unable to keep a job. Patient programmed to die by 16. He stole a van and drove without a license."

JOE CARL: I was sitting in the car at a shopping center and he passed by. He was alone. He was 15 years old when he drove by in our van. It was scary.

EASTEPP: This states that there were three occasions.

JOE CARL: I only witnessed one.

Eastepp continues to read the evaluation. "BJ had been electroshocked, He needs inpatient care. Dr Adams and Dr. Custer couldn’t treat him."

JOE CARL: He never had marks of electroshock.

Keraga comments: "Patient is alert, quiet. He knows he will die by 16. He has no insights. He has never been hospitalized. Place in adolescent unit. Art therapy. 30 to 60 days. No contact with mother. It isn’t safe for him to be with his mother because of her mind control.

JOE CARL: I was told they were the experts in the field. I had no choice. There seemed to be no alternatives.

EASTEPP: Describe BJ.

JOE CARL: He was well groomed, very deliberate, his attention to work exceptional. He has good skills, no signs of emotional reactions. He was very emotional at SSG. He was good at math. He was fun loving and had a good sense of humor.

EASTEPP: Was Lynn apprised to these tests?

JOE CARL: I don’t remember.

Keraga comments: "BJ as a tendency to act out either internal or external. Twenty four hour hospitalization will certainly help him. He needs reality testing and ego testing."

EASTEPP: Had you discussed therapy?

JOE CARL: No. Keraga said that Kristi needed a psychiatrist. He didn’t bring Kristi down at the same time. Kristi was bright and very popular. It was hard. She thought she was going to be tested. She was put into the children’s wing. It seemed logical at that time. Lynn wasn’t involved in any decision making.

6/14/92 Kristi was admitted to SSG. When asked why she was there she said, "BJ was admitted for treatment of MPD. I am here to see if anything happened to me. I may have been programmed to kill myself."

Kristi was diagnosed with acute suicidal behavior. Kristi said that her father is the only member at home. High school is harder than middle school.

6/14/92 Keraga’s notes: Polyfragmented. Chief complaint - no longer safe at home because of the cult. Catastrophic sexual abuse. Works with the Adam Institute in Austin with Dr. Frank Schultz. Schultz mentioned MPD. Pseudo seizures. Austin team and Houston team felt she needed to be put into the hospital immediately.

JOE CARL: With the cult nothing seems to be logical. Lynn had a lot of stress with the children coming in. She was aware of 10 alters. She was angry at herself and others.

Keraga’s notes: Patient broke her arm twice, once in kindergarten and again in first grade. Mother is in treatment for cult abuse and suicidal tendencies. Patient had an above average intelligence, and development in spite of treatment she has received. She is an alert, pretty child. She had a history of getting triggered by her brother even if he looks at her. The patient had no hallucinations. Ritually abused since birth. Shocked by grandparents. She has been conditioned. Many alters. One pseudo seizure lasting 10 minutes. She is in danger for her life. She wants to get home with her father.

Summary of testing Kristi Carl: Peterson, Keraga: Persistent danger. Minimal hygiene. Reality test - high risk for self and others. Her current amnesia indicates MPD.

JOE CARL: Test scores were not discussed with me.

EASTEPP: Did you have any discussion about the treatment?

JOE CARL: No, and I didn’t take this very well.

EASTEPP: Had you made any effort to get information?

JOE CARL: I asked anyone who would listen for information. The excellence was in Houston. I was checking all the time.

EASTEPP: How were you doing your job?

JOE CARL: I could adjust my hours. I was allowed to see my children. I did have sessions with his wife. I would have sessions as often as I could get them. I would ask, "What do they expect to accomplish?" "What are you doing?" "Where are they going?" These were constant questions. Maybe they could come home for Christmas.

EASTEPP: Do you recall Lynn in the summer of 1992? Who tells the children that they are getting out?

JOE CARL: The children were not allowed to see each other, because they would program each other. If that’s what keeps them safe. It was all right with me. Lynn’s situation was getting worse and worse. The further we got along in 1992 the information from the therapists was terrible. The children were have sex and everything you can think of.

EASTEPP: Why didn’t you get them out?

JOE CARL: Frank Schultz was reinforcing everything Peterson was doing.

HARDIN: The witness isn’t answering the question.

EASTEPP: Who did you talk to in Austin? Were you doing anything else?

JOE CARL: I had security devices put in my home. I was probably as much of a victim as my family.

Joe Carl said talked to Peterson and Keraga about hypnosis. He knew that they counted down. He didn’t think much of hypnosis. He did know that it was a way you could talk to alters. He did know that abreaction was a risk, but the only way you could get rid of the problem was to relive it.

EASTEPP: When did you find out the children were not going back to school?

JOE CARL: They wanted to come home, but they dealt with it. BJ went out to school, but Kristi was kept restricted. Kristi had to stay in the central lobby one-on-one. I think all had one-to-one at one time or other.

EASTEPP: Did your bills reflect this?

JOE CARL: I didn’t notice. Whenever I questioned anything, the answer was it is a matter of safety.

Eastepp shows Joe Carl some letters. He recognizes BJ ’s handwriting. The letters were written in August, 1992. One was to Joe Carl telling him that he had found out in therapy that he had sex with Kristi. The other was to Kristy with the same information, and an apology. Eastepp asks Joe Carl how these letters affected him.

JOE CARL: Not greatly because I didn’t believe it.

A tape was begun before session ended for the day.

Wednesday, January 13, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.


Joe Carl is on the witness stand. Joe Carl is the husband of the patient Lynn Carl. The two children of Joe and Lynn Carl, Kristi (13) and BJ (15), were also patients at SSG.

Government attorney Larry Eastepp resumes playing of the audio tape from September 9, 1992 meeting. The meeting involves Lynn Carl, Joe Carl, Dr. Keraga, Sylvia Davis, Paige Johnson, Patricia Taylor and Frank Schultz.

Notes from the tape - Eastepp informs jury that the tape is to start on page 33 of the transcript.-- Because of slow progress, the therapists estimate that it will take two to three years. However the therapy could go faster if some of the blockers get unblocked. Joe states that his goal for her therapy is for Lynn’s safety and for her to be rid of the cult. He concurs with the therapists and says that she is going to have to go through the therapy to get better. He says that she needs to get on with helping the kids. He says that he wants to make it loud and clear that she is not going to return home as long as she is in the cult. Lynn starts to cry and says that she doesn’t want to stay in the hospital for another two or three years. There’s a lot of discussion about how hard she has been working, writing and writing and writing, and art work on mapping and page after page. She has not been sitting around watching TV or playing cards. Cards are not on the unit anymore.

Lynn Carl on tape: I would rather die free than die in the cult.

Joe Carl on tape: I’m sorry that I’ve become so hardened that I’m more into results than slogans.

Joe Carl expresses that he would like to meet without the treatment team without Lynn and shortly after that Lynn leaves the session. Everyone tells Joe what a great job he is doing. Joe discusses the possibility of getting a divorce. There is discussion about BJ and Kristi’s therapy. Joe says that Kristi still loves her mom but BJ now hates her and doesn’t want to see her. Joe Shanley is mentioned in the context of touching. There is a discussion of the possibility that touching might be triggering. There is more discussion that it will take two or three years treatment for Lynn. Tape ends at 8:59am.

EASTEPP: What is the issue regarding no hugs?

JOE CARL: It was a triggering mechanism.

EASTEPP: What about the timing of [this meeting]?

JOE CARL: Times were getting tougher. I was asked to be tougher?

EASTEPP: Who asked you?

JOE CARL: Dr. Peterson, Dr. Keraga.

When asked about Joe Shanley, Joe Carl said that he had met Joe Shanley when Shanley had come down from Chicago. He said that they talked about safety. The meeting was arranged after Dr. Peterson told Joe Carl that she would like for him to meet Joe Shanley.

EASTEPP: What about the issues that she had before her treatment? [Issues about years of abuse from her older brother.]

JOE CARL: It was never discussed.

JOE CARL: How could I be so blind... I was looking...

EASTEPP: Why didn’t you check you wife out of the hospital and go somewhere else?

JOE CARL: They were the experts.

EASTEPP: Did you ever read the letter to CPS?

JOE CARL: Yes.

Question not recorded.

JOE CARL: She was sorting out what was true and what was not true. I was told that this was normal.

EASTEPP: Who did you hear that from?

JOE CARL: All the treaters.

Eastepp calls attention to a note in Kristi Carl’s (Joe Carl’s daughter) record that was written 11 days before the therapy session. The record is from Sally McDonald. Dr. Peterson had said that Sally McDonald was in the cult.

EASTEPP: You told your wife that you can’t con these people.

JOE CARL: I said that to motivate her. She was not taking the pathway she should.

Joe Carl said that his relationship with Lynn was deteriorating. They were not seeing each other as often. They were getting angry at each other.

EASTEPP: Did you ever check with anyone else?

JOE CARL: I was pretty paranoid about anyone being in the cult.

EASTEPP: Who did you get your [information from]?

JOE CARL: Frank Schultz.

In reference to electroshock:

JOE CARL: I heard in many sessions that they had these shock boxes. I spent many hours looking [all over my house] for these boxes. I looked in every bedroom, in the attic wherever.

Joe Carl said that he was told by Frank Schultz that there were cult people in the FBI. Joe was told that the treaters did not believe that Lynn was getting better.

JOE CARL: I could not live with Lynn AND the children.

--------

Taped therapy session from October 26, 1992: Participants: Joe Carl, Lynn Carl, Dr. Peterson, Dr. Keraga, Sylvia Davis and Page Johnston. Lynn Carl is not present at the start. After Joe Carl and the treaters talk for awhile they move to another room and continue the session with Lynn present. The tape starts with a discussion of BJ and Kristi Carl. The treaters are complaining that BJ has stopped working and mainly concerned about getting off unit restrictions and going out. BJ has stopped journaling. Kristi, on the other hand is highly motivated and she keeps working. Joe indicates that BJ needs to get the message. He later says that once BJ gets over the hump everything will be fine.

JOE CARL: I notice around the unit he loves all the attention, he’s behind everybody else, he’s a good kid and he really needs motivation. If he isn’t given direction and told what will happen he will find ways around it.

Dr. Peterson explains that she has discussed the difference between acute care and chronic care. She said that she had told BJ that if he didn’t do the work in SSG as an acute care facility that he would spend years in a residential treatment facility. The treaters talk about how BJ seems to understand in one session and then the next session he is in denial and depression, etc. Joe is told that Lynn does not seem to be getting any better and there may not be a future for her with Joe and the children.

Discussion about what the children are saying.

Lynn has told the treaters that she doesn’t think that what they are saying is true. There is a statement that BJ seems to know a lot about his mother and Kristi doesn’t. There is discussion about contamination. Joe said "I think there is a network here." The possibility is raised that information is being passed by the person who is with the patient’s one-on-one. The discussion turns to Kristi and the difficulty of restraining her. One of the treaters say that Kristi was able to bite herself in spite the fact that there were several people holding her. Joe is told that Kristi will require several more months of treatment. Joe is told that Halloween and Christmas holidays are difficult times. Joe wants to know who he should get angry at. He is told that he needs to be angry with Lynn. He is told that he should be angry with Lynn for what she has done to the children.

The meeting stops and then resumes in another room where Lynn Carl is located. The second half of the meeting starts with a conversation between Joe and Lynn. Lynn says that she thinks she is making progress. Joe says that he had just experienced a session with Kristi and he thinks she [Lynn] is bullshitting. He says that this stuff just keeps going on. Joe continues to vent anger at Lynn and tells her what he thinks about her abuse of the children. He says that she could be in SSG for another ten years. He continues to vent his rage at Lynn. He winds up a long passage with --- "You are not coming anywhere close to me or them [the children], period until this is all gone."

Lynn remains passive and sounds sad and depressed as she says that she understands. The therapists and Joe Carl put pressure on Lynn to give them more information about what she did to the children before she entered the hospital.

Joe on tape: You want to keep playing games. God damn it you know and I want it out. Is that clear?

Joe continues in an angry voice. Lynn first says that she doesn’t know. Then she starts to give names of people who were involved. She names the Richards, Carolyn Lewis and the Jeff kid who lived behind. There is a disagreement between Dr. Peterson and Lynn Carl on where the abuse took place. Lynn Carl says that it occurred in a warehouse near the train station. Dr. Peterson says that she has learned from Kristi that it was in a medical building and Kristi should know the difference between a medical building and a warehouse. Lynn names additional people who lived nearby who were in the cult. Joe asked why he didn’t know. He was told that he was put in a trance in front of the TV.

Joe on tape: Was there anybody that I work with?

Lynn on tape: Otis.

Joe is a diabetic. He is told that drugs are put in his insulin. The tape continues for quite a while longer. The conversation is mainly between Lynn Carl and Dr. Peterson. Peterson is confrontational with Lynn throughout the tape. Tape ends

EASTEPP: How do you describe your relation with your wife at this time.

JOE CARL: It was deteriorating. I am more frustrated.

EASTEPP: Other than therapy what contact were you having with her?

JOE CARL: That was about it.

EASTEPP: How did she appear physically?

JOE CARL: She didn’t appear to be in good shape. She had a lot of despair -- being told that she would not see family and children again.

EASTEPP: Were the issues about abuse from her brother being discussed?

JOE CARL: No. It’s all cult.

EASTEPP: Were all [the people she named] real?

JOE CARL: They were real.

EASTEPP: Why were you accepting this?

JOE CARL: I was accepting almost any possibility.

Contamination

JOE CARL: I was told not to talk to children and not relay information. I was very careful.

Joe said that there was a lot of contamination by therapists and others.

Lying

Joe said that Lynn was confronted often about lying.

EASTEPP: In what context?

JOE CARL: There was nothing you could not explain...

Defense objects -- the witness was not responding to the question asked.

EASTEPP: Did you incorporate that in your thinking?

JOE CARL: I would keep pressing. I would tell her not to lie. I truly believed after sitting in on the therapy sessions that something profound had happened. Dr. Keraga was becoming more vocal. I was seeing them on a weekly basis and sometimes during the week.

JOE CARL: She wasn’t getting anywhere and I wanted to see progress.

Notes from taped session

Davis: Spouse expressed being livid over hearing about daughters abuse - Deeper alter BC appeared and ... - Dr. Peterson warned her of jail if she is attacked.

EASTEPP: Do you recall threatening gestures?

JOE CARL: Dirty look.

EASTEPP: How often were the words fake being used?

JOE CARL: Very often. The answers would generally be we have been through this before.

Notes from session with Kristi Carl on September 11, 1992: Patient’s alter Satan came out as worked through distorted belief system. Patient feels that she must return to people to be electroshocked. Patient’s alters were able to use father as someone who can offer safety.

EASTEPP: How often was your daughter on one-to-one?

JOE CARL: The majority of the time.

EASTEPP: Did you ask why?

JOE CARL: The answer was for her safety.

EASTEPP: How was Kristi doing at this time?

JOE CARL: She was really doing worse.

EASTEPP: Why?

JOE CARL: It was really killing her. She couldn’t go outside. It was like a concentration camp. It was explained to me that this was the only way she could be safe.

EASTEPP: What about BJ.

JOE CARL: BJ handled it better. He just didn’t seem to be able to get into it.

JOE CARL said that he was able to take BJ out of the hospital to go bowling, to buy clothes etc.

EASTEPP: What was on your mind [when you out with BJ]?

JOE CARL: I was keeping real track. I was watching for signals. I was constantly putting pressure on him.

In the fall of 199 [2?] there was a list of 27 people that included one teacher and Sally McDonald who were unsafe and could not [or would not] work on the unit. [Context for this statement is missing.]

EASTEPP: Did you know this?

JOE CARL: It would have been a concern.

EASTEPP: Did you discuss ...

JOE CARL: I may have discussed a particular nurse.

EASTEPP: As the fall progressed was the issue of divorce still coming up?

JOE CARL: It came up. I was left with very little choice. [It was his wife or his children.]

EASTEPP: Was there anyone else that you were talking to?

JOE CARL: No.

Joe said that he continued to come every week and that the frequency of visits during the week increased.

JOE CARL: I was fortunate that I could adjust work hours. My health was a little worse.

EASTEPP: How was your diabetes?

JOE CARL: I am sure that it was much worse.

EASTEPP: Would you run into these people [coworkers that had been identified as being in the cult]?

JOE CARL: I had to have a job.

EASTEPP: At the time your [family] are leaving [the hospital] were there [acquaintances] that were not [associated with the cult].

JOE CARL: Very few.

Tape of therapy session on December 9, 1992: Participants: BJ Carl, Joe Carl, Sylvia Davis

A tape that is filled with emotion from BJ Carl. BJ is wanting out. He is at first angry and is speaking out with a lot of four letter words. Later he calms down and starts to cry. Joe Carl and Sylvia try to get BJ to demonstrate how he puts Joe Carl in a trance. BJ tries by tapping a pen but it doesn’t work. There is discussion about how long BJ’s therapy will last. BJ would like it to be over by February but he is told that that is unrealistic. Toward the end of the tape BJ is calm and talking about his Christmas list. He makes a joke about still not having a Ferrari.

Tape ends

Eastepp calls attention to BJ’s behavior at the first part of the tape.

JOE CARL: That wasn’t him. It was a different personality.

EASTEPP: What about BJ today.

JOE CARL: More like the latter.

Joe Carl expresses a lot of self blame.

JOE CARL: I constantly questioned it. It was my fault that I believed. I had trust in these people.

EASTEPP: Why did you have trust in these people?

JOE CARL: I was told over and over that they were the experts.

Joe talks about how he was told he had been drugged.

JOE CARL: Things were put in my insulin. Dr. Keraga could have told me that it did not happen.

On the tape BJ stated that he hated his mother. Joe Carl said that BJ had a great relationship before therapy.

Davis note from session: Wants out of this place - hostel toward father - weeping wth rejection.

Discharge date issue

EASTEPP: Were discharge dates being discussed?

JOE CARL: We had conversations around February.

EASTEPP: Why were you accepting that February..

JOE CARL: I had been convinced that they needed so much help.

By middle of December regarding divorce.

JOE CARL: It had got down to the point that Lynn was going to have one more big try for a breakthrough. - Discussed with all the doctors. - I would get divorce and I would still have the children. Frank Schultz was forcing these issues by suggesting that I get a divorce. That was the only way I could get my children back.

Christmas

Joe Carl said that he brought Christmas presents to the unit. They never had a complete family session. [A session in which all family members were present.]

Tape Therapy Session - January 18, 1993

Participants: Joe Carl, BJ Carl, Dr. Peterson, Dr. Keraga, Sylvia Davis

Joe Carl tells BJ that he is getting a divorce. BJ expresses anger at his father for not protecting him. He asks his father how all this stuff went on and he did not know. BJ says that he had sex with his sister all those times and his father should have heard them. Joe says that he is moving and is only telling those that have to know - mortgage company, Realtor, etc.. It was a long tape and it was stopped before the end.

EASTEPP: About the issue of moving.

JOE CARL: I was told that I would have to move.

EASTEPP: How long had you lived in your home?

JOE CARL: 14 years.

EASTEPP: What did you do?

JOE CARL: I sold the house and moved.

EASTEPP: You told your son that you were getting a divorce. When did you make the decision?

JOE CARL: Early January.

Joe said he could not think of any particular event that triggered getting the divorce. He said that his wife was not getting any better. He said that his feelings were that there was no chance that they would get back together. Joe talked to an attorney who was recommended by Frank Schultz.

EASTEPP: Do you recall when the papers were signed?

JOE CARL: January 29, 1993.

EASTEPP: How often did the restraining order come up?

JOE CARL: Often.

Taped therapy session - February 1, 1993: Participants: Joe Carl, Kristi Carl, Dr. Keraga, Paige Johnston. Kristi Carl is told that her mother and father are getting a divorce. She starts to cry and scream this continues through most of the tape. She repeats over and over that she wants to see her mom. [It was a very emotional tape and one that was difficult to sit through.]

Tape ends at 5:10pm

EASTEPP: Do you recall the session where you told your daughter about the divorce?

JOE CARL: Yes.

EASTEPP: How was your daughter doing?

JOE CARL: She was probably doing worse. She was working hard - abreaction sessions. Physically she couldn’t go off the unit. She didn’t [get exercise], spent a lot of time in the central lobby.

Later on the same day - 5:15 PM

Dr. Keraga note: physically assaulting staff, struggling to get off unit, verbal threats of running away. One-on-one - Ativan - monitoring.

6:15 PM: attempting to bolt for exit - not following staff directions - quiet room (Quiet room was a locked padded room.) Attempts to control with Ativan.

EASTEPP: Were you aware of this?

JOE CARL: Yes.

Note from Dr. Peterson - 2 days later: Patient seen on unit on restraints - several attempts to hurt body - many animal parts - about father being Satan - no life outside cult - she was safe to take out of restraints - two-to-one.

JOE CARL: They [mother and daughter] got along well their entire life.

Joe Carl stated that his insurance company was changed to Prudential at the first of the year.

EASTEPP: What was happening with your wife’s therapy?

JOE CARL: There was talk about her leaving. She was not getting any better.

A Dr. Garth came in and did an assessment on all three patients for the insurance company. Dr. Keraga was angry that he was allowed to conduct sessions.

Dr. Peterson and Dr. Keraga were searching for places for Lynn to go. The insurance company was not going to allow her to continue to stay at SSG. Around the end of February they found a place that was less structured than SSG. She would continue to have therapy and start to live on her own.

JOE CARL: I approved. I wanted her to be as far away as possible. The children’s treatment was to continue.

EASTEPP: When were the first legal papers filed in regard to the divorce?

JOE CARL: End of January.

EASTEPP: Were you still visiting with your wife after the divorce?

JOE CARL: [Yes]

Eastepp introduces into evidence a copy of the divorce papers. He is going over the document when the judge interrupts and calls it a day for the court session. After the jury leaves, a motion to dismiss the case against Sylvia Davis was denied.

Wednesday, January 13, 1998.

Houston, Texas.

Trial Resumes

The federal criminal trial against psychologist Judith Peterson, psychiatrists Gloria Keraga and Richard Seward, therapist Sylvia Davis and hospital administrator George Jerry Mueck resumed on January 7, 1999. The government has accused these former employees of the Spring Shadows Glen hospital of fraud saying that they used hypnosis, drugs, isolation and other techniques to keep patients in the hospital unnecessarily so that they could collect insurance payments. The defense has characterized the case as unwarranted government intrusion into professionals’ decisions about appropriate therapy.

According to the Houston Chronicle, U.S. District Judge Ewing Werlein Jr. denied a motion late Wednesday by defense lawyer David Gerger to dismiss the indictment on grounds that the government did not present adequate witness testimony to the grand jury. The judge said civil depositions and trial testimony were available to the grand jurors.

Joe Carl, the husband and father of former patients at Spring Shadows Glen has been on the witness stand. He testified that his family and neighbors were all identified as satanic cult members because of the therapy. Joe Carl testified that he became so terrified that he installed an elaborate home security system for protection from the cult.

Carl said that the therapists and his family told him that the reason he did not remember the cult was because "he was drugged or put into a trance during torture sessions and other cult activities." On a tape of a therapy session that was played, Lynn Carl said that "she could snap her fingers three times, driving him into a trance, and set him in front of the television set while she and the children left to engage in cult activities."

Carl said he went along with his family’s beliefs because "If they were having any problems I wanted to address them." He now believes he was duped. "They had me hook, line and sinker into this (belief in) multiple personality disorder and cults."

Carl testified that he had met Judith Peterson frequently to discuss his family. He said "She is a dynamic lady. She has a lot of personality and drive...she expressed a desire to help my wife." He said that Peterson told him that his children, Kristi and B.J. were the "most profoundly abused children she had ever seen in her entire life."

In August 1997, a federal court jury awarded nearly $5.8 million to Carl’s wife Lynn in her suits against the hospital and doctors. The children’s lawsuit was settled.

This summary is based on a Houston Chronicle article by Mark Smith, "Testimony links hospital to fears of satanic abuse," 1/13/99.

Thursday, January 14, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.


Joe Carl is on the witness stand. Joe Carl is the husband of the patient Lynn Carl. The two children of Joe and Lynn Carl, Kristi (13) and BJ (15), were also patients at SSG.

Eastepp starts the day with a review of Joe and Lynn Carl’s divorce papers.

Wife’s address was given as 2801 Gesner [SSG address] Wife was given copy of divorce papers. The papers were signed by wife on February 1, 1993. At the time she was in the intensive care unit. There were temporary orders that were agreed to on February 4, 1993. Joe Carl was appointed sole managing conservator of the children. Wife had visitation rights. There was no restraining order document at this time. Final divorce decree was on April 8, 1993. Lynn Carl was in Florida at that time.

A restraining order was obtained. The restraining order did not allow Lynn Carl within 1000 ft. Joe Carl testified that the restraining order was obtained on the advice of Dr. Peterson and Dr. Keraga.

JOE CARL: I didn’t know in the future if wife would be back in Texas.

Letter dated Feb 19, 1993 - with Houston Psychiatric Resources letterhead with Dr. Keraga’s signature. Letter was regarding Lynn Carl - Agree to transfer to residential treatment center.

Dr. Garb with US Behavioral Health started making contact with SSG as early as January 5, 1993. Dr. Garb was to give a second opinion. In Dr. Garb’s report dated February 11, 1993 he stated that the patient shows no suicidal tendencies at this time and he recommends discharge.

On 2/18/93 SSG was decertified as a treatment facility for Prudential.

Lynn Carl got out of SSG around March 1, 1993 and was transferred to Pathways in Miami.

Tape session - March 1, 1993. Participants: Joe Carl, Lynn Carl and Sylvia Davis. The tape starts with Lynn and Joe discussing packing up Lynn’s belongings in preparation to leave the hospital. Lynn then discusses how she is to be treated in Florida. She says that she is to have 20 treatment sessions per week. Joe asks her if she plans to come back to Austin after her treatment in Florida. Lynn responds that she doesn’t know. She says that Joe doesn’t want her to come back to Austin and she has no friends or family. Joe and Lynn discuss social security, insurance and other financial matters. At this point on the tape Joe Carl starts to cry. Joe Carl on the witness stand starts to cry also. Joe explains how Lynn can reach him if she needs his help. Lynn starts to cry as she talks about not being able to see the children. The rest of the tape continues to be sad as Joe and Lynn express their love for each other and for the children.

[The tape has an emotional impact on the courtroom. Joe on the witness stand is not the only one crying as the tape is played. This writer did not personally observe but was told that some members of the jury cried.]

Lynn Carl left for Florida on March 4, 1993

Discharge summary: Final diagnosis - MPD polyfragmented, PTSD, depressed - GAF 15-30

EASTEPP: Was she better compared to when she went into the hospital?

JOE CARL: No

Discharge summary continues: pathologic fear because of cult abuse - suggested that children enter therapy - children were abused in horrific manner - she reported herself to CPS - she was trained to hurt children - the summary goes on to discuss how children were drugged and electroshocked. BJ was raped and Lynn’s job was to hold him down. Joe was not aware because heroin was put in his insulin

EASTEPP: Did you ever have any drug withdrawals?

JOE CARL: No.

Joe said that after his wife went to Florida he spoke to her once or twice a week. Lynn Carl first went to Florida. Later she was transferred from Florida to Baltimore.

Children’s therapy continues

JOE CARL: The children didn’t seem to be getting better. The didn’t like because mother was gone.

Eastepp introduces additional records from US Behavioral Health

USBH wanted the children to be transferred to a residential treatment center. The insurance company wanted specific doctors. One of the doctors was going to sue him. [him =Dr. Garb?]

JOE CARL: I was upset. I didn’t think the insurance company was doing what was best for the children. I wanted the children to finish out the school year. There was lots of turmoil with regard to Dr. Garb. Dr. Keraga thought it was unprofessional for him to come in and interview the children without her being there.

Eastepp introduced exhibits to show that others at SSG (Dr. Walden and Dr. Santos) were now saying that acute care was not needed.

Meetings were going on in regard to transition.

Eastepp calls Joe Carl’s attention to a table that summarized the restraint sessions for Kristi Carl. There were a total of 19 restraint sessions between the period from Aug 31, 1992 and Feb 3, 1993. There were 31 restraint sessions after Feb 3, 1993 until her discharge in June 1993.

A letter was written to Joe Carl from Jerry Mueck that referenced a letter from Dr. Santos. The letter stated that acute care was not needed. The insurance coverage was less and it would be necessary for Joe Carl to put up a $20,000 deposit.

JOE CARL: I couldn’t deposit $20,000. I didn’t have the money. We worked out an agreement for lower care.

Discharge summary for BJ - June 8, 1993: Diagnosis-MPD multi fragmented. GAF 45-50. While in SSG patient was on restrictions for phone, mail and visitors. Patient desired to have the restrictions. CPS and police were informed of the abuse. Transferred to Austin Hospital for residential treatment.

Daughter was transferred 3 days later to the same facility. They were put on separate units.

Discharge summary for Kristi - June 11, 1993: Initial GAF 45-50 - Final GAF 30-50. Final assessment - lengthy hospitalization - seen by Dr. Peterson, Dr. Keraga, Sylvia Davis and Page Johnston. Patient worked well in therapy.

Children were to be in the Oaks Treatment Center. Dr. Frank Schultz (worked for Kathleen Adams) was to be therapist. He saw them on a daily basis. Children were discharged at the end of December 1993. There was an alleged rape of Kristi by BJ and as a result BJ was given additional treatment in a facility for perpetrators in lieu of a prison sentence. This lasted until August 1994. He got out because of insurance.

BJ was told that he had raped his sister and he had made statements that he had raped his sister.

Joe Carl and his children were making plans to get on with their life. Joe Carl married again but the marriage only lasted 5 months. Joe saw Lynn Carl again in December 1995.

EASTEPP: How did you come about seeing her in 95.

JOE CARL: I saw the Frontline film in November. I then in December I saw my wife in Dallas for one day.

EASTEPP: How was she?

JOE CARL: She was in great shape. She was more like what I had lived with for 27 years. She came down around Christmas 1995 and the first part of February 1996.

EASTEPP: You filed a lawsuit against all 5 of the defendants. Was it settled to your satisfaction?

JOE CARL: Yes.

EASTEPP: How are you now?

JOE CARL: We are good. We continue to work on the scars.

EASTEPP: Did your wife have MPD?

JOE CARL: No.

EASTEPP: Did your BJ have MPD?

JOE CARL: No

EASTEPP: Did Kristi have MPD?

JOE CARL: No

EASTEPP: Pass the witness.

The time is 10:05am

HARDIN: Is it your position that the divorce was caused by the doctors at SSG? Answer not recorded.

HARDIN: The tape that had many of us close to tears was a sad event.

Hardin then asked if the sad event had anything to do with insurance fraud which is the reason the defendants are on trial.

JOE CARL: I did not associate the event with insurance fraud.

HARDIN: This was a woman that you loved very deeply. Did you sometimes feel that this would never end?

JOE CARL: Oh yes.

HARDIN: When we get to this tape you make it clear that you do not want her to make contact with the kids.

JOE CARL: [Yes.]

Hardin asked if Joe and his wife ever fought.

JOE CARL: We had fights. We never got beyond statements.

HARDIN: Miss Davis was sad about [the events happening on the tape].

Hardin asked Joe Carl how he felt about Dr. Peterson now.

JOE CARL: I feel sorry for her. I feel angry at her.

Joe Carl said that he communicated with his wife in the fall of 95. He said that she had sent some articles. [The articles were not described.] Joe indicated that what he saw on the Frontline show was similar to what happened to his family.

HARDIN: By 1995 she [Lynn] was talking to lawyers.

HARDIN: By the summer of 95 you were being interviewed by lawyers on both sides.

In the summer of 95 Joe Carl was still supportive of Dr. Peterson and he talked with people from the law firm that represented her [Fulbright and Jaworski - check spelling].

Hardin introduces a note that Joe Carl had written back in 1992. The note thanked Dr. Peterson, Trish Taylor, Paige Johnston and Sylvia Davis for their thoughtful and professional care that they had given to his family.

HARDIN: Did you agree with what you had written.

JOE CARL: Completely. It was accurate of my feelings. Treatment began in May 1991 and this was my feeling until fall of 95.

In February 1996 Joe Carl and Lynn Carl resumed their relationship.

HARDIN: Had she already filed her lawsuit?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Were you an original party in the lawsuit?

JOE CARL: No.

Joe Carl said that he became a party to the lawsuit possibly in late 95 or early 96. Joe Carl said that they began to live together again in 1996.

As Hardin starts his initial questions Heather Peterson brings in boxes containing binders of medical records of Lynn Carl. Starting in 1985 Lynn Carl had 9 hospitalizations prior to SSG. Hardin indicates that he plans to go through the records from 1985 -1991.

HARDIN: Did you look through the records from The Oaks in preparation for your testimony?

Joe Carl answer was not recorded.

HARDIN: Is it possible that there are things that you have forgotten before SSG?

JOE CARL: Of course.

HARDIN: Is it possible that you have sanitized in your own mind...

JOE CARL: Anything is possible.

Hardin brings up previous lawsuits by Joe Carl. Joe had brought suit against the Oaks for releasing son too soon. [This was when Joe Carl believed that BJ had raped Kristi after he was released. There was no indication on how the suit was settled.]

Joe Carl testified that he had known wife since 1971 and he came to believe All of it. [MPD, SRA etc.]

Cults

JOE CARL: I had read stories in newspapers about cults.

Hardin asks about cult deprogramming

JOE CARL: Yes I had heard of that.

HARDIN: When you started hearing about [satanic cults...]

JOE CARL: I didn’t rule out the possibility.

HARDIN: In 1985 you were in search of a solution to wife’s problems.

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: She wanted to know why.

JOE CARL: Sure.

Hardin asks if Lynn felt guilty and embarrassed about her suicidal behavior.

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: You don’t know what was happening in therapy in Florida.

Answer not recorded.

HARDIN: During that 6 years [1985 -1991] you both were searching for answers.

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Why death of mother would cause these events.

JOE CARL: Yes

HARDIN: You quit drinking in 83.

JOE CARL: Yes.

Joe Carl said that he had a problem.

Hardin asked about a period of 4-5 years seeing Dr. [?] for [marital?] therapy?

JOE CARL: I don’t recall a long period of marital therapy.

Back to Florida

HARDIN: Your wife was asked to leave because of suicide attempt.

JOE CARL: I think she did [attempt suicide].

Hardin said that Lynn Carl had 100 stitches after her suicide attempt. Joe Carl said that he was not aware of that.

Hardin asked when the children came to live with him. Joe Carl could not remember exactly but said that there was a time when the children were with him and he took care of them.

There was discussion about the Oaks where the children were being treated. Joe Carl said that Dr. Peterson had ties to the Oaks. She came to the clinic and put on seminars.

HARDIN: Whose idea was it that she had ties to the Oaks?

JOE CARL: I am assuming that she had contacts at the Oaks.

HARDIN: Did she see them [your children] at the Oaks?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Are you sure of that?

JOE CARL: It was my understanding. I got it from Frank Schultz.

JOE CARL: Faye Fennigan was trying to set up a unit in the Oaks that was similar to Dr. Peterson’s.

Concerning the alleged rape

JOE CARL: The allegation was that my son had penetrated my daughter. The allegation came from Frank Schultz. Daughter said it several days later and son gave confession. I never did believe that it happened.

HARDIN: Did you believe initially?

JOE CARL: I didn’t believe it. There was a time I didn’t want to believe it and there was a time I was forced to accept it. [after police became involved]

HARDIN: You blame yourself more than anyone else - also feel that you were wrong. Period of time...

JOE CARL: Could be so.

HARDIN: You were given options [for son’s alleged rape] El Paso [prison sentence] or treatment. It was reasonable for the law to work out alternatives. To get treatment in lieu of punishment.

JOE CARL: BJ later said that he did not do it.

HARDIN: It was nothing more than Kristi telling a therapist that BJ had raped her.

JOE CARL: Everybody treated it as if she did.

HARDIN: No one from SSG was involved. You turned around and sued [the Oaks for releasing BJ too soon.]

At this point Hardin talks about the "search for blame". He writes "Search for Blame" on a flip chart and identifies three time periods - 1985-91, 5/91-6/93, 6/93-11/95. Hardin got Joe Carl to agree that from 6/93 to 11/95 that he still thought his wife was a member of a satanic cult.

HARDIN: From 11/95 to present you blame SSG and these therapists.

JOE CARL: That would be fair.

HARDIN: Give it some thought you are a little too harsh on yourself. You feel guilty.

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Did you ever blame your wife?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: From 1985 - 91 who was to blame? How do we solve the problem? You [want] someone or somebody to blame.

HARDIN: Isn’t it true for each of these segments you thought there was a different cause?

JOE CARL: That’s probably true.

Hardin question not recorded.

JOE CARL: I don’t blame them [those on trial] for what happened before she got there.

HARDIN: MPD did not come up until Kathleen Adams.

JOE CARL: That’s what I believe.

At this point 2 posters are put on easels in front of Joe and the jury. The posters show dates for hospital admissions for Lynn Carl starting in 1985. Below each entry the admitting diagnosis. Lynn Carl had 9 hospital admissions in Austin before she was admitted to SSG. Total time for all the admissions was about 6 months.

Hardin starts with the 5/18/85 admission to Shoal Creek. Lynn was admitted for major depression.

Joe Carl is given three 1 inch ring binders containing medical records. As Hardin proceeds he gets Joe to turn to specific pages in the binders and the record is read for the jury. A lot of the records are hand written and difficult to read. The remainder of the afternoon was spent going through the records for the first hospital admission. The records indicated that Lynn Carl had been abused by her brother for 10 years. She had MS for four years and was having a hard time from day to day. She was attempting to forget her past abuse. She indicated that her husband still had a drinking problem in 1985. Joe Carl testified that she was mistaken. He said that he had stopped drinking two years earlier. She said that Joe sometimes got verbally abusive and once he hit her. Joe said that he had slapped her.

When Lynn entered the hospital she had recently attempted suicide with an overdose of an over the counter sleeping pill. Two days before she was admitted she started hearing voices. In the hospital she talks to the treaters about rape from her brother starting at age 5 and he offered her up to a friend at age 5. There were entries by Dr. Custer that Lynn had self destructive ideas. She was on suicide precaution. At one point Lynn turned in a razor. There was another entry about her husband’s drinking problem.

HARDIN: Do you think it’s possible that we engage in revision of history?

JOE CARL: Anything is possible.

Hardin asked about the drinking issue.

JOE CARL: That means she was mistaken at the time.

Entry from group session: Abused for 10-13 years. Kept it a secret for 20 years.

There was another entry about hurting herself.

HARDIN: She was talking back in 1985 about hurting self.

June 21, 1985 nurse entry: Fearful of rage within, fearful of hurting others, admitted she would use rifle, stuck in victims role, can’t stand this choking rage.

HARDIN: Did you realize she was talking like this back in 1985.

Record: Shared her concern about near discharge - stated that mother was right - she was a bad girl - wants to cut herself. This goes on with other entries.

JOE CARL: I see a lady talking about abuse from her brother.

HARDIN: She is beginning to make an evolutionary...

The reading from Lynn Carl’s past medical records continues.

Hardin questions Lynn Carl in the same manner he has questioned Mary Shanley and Lucy Abney previously. He spends most of the time with questions about hospitalizations prior to SSG and very little time on the patients records while in SSG.

Wednesday, January 20, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.


Joe Carl is on the witness stand and Rusty Hardin continues his cross-examination. Hardin is working out of two books; one contains the medical records of Dr. Custer, Lynn’s psychiatrist. The other book contains the notes of Janie Calareto, Lynn’s therapist. Joe Carl has the same two books. They are big and awkward. Hardin moves quickly back and forth between the two books and Joe Carl is busy trying to find his place. Hardin also moves back and forth in time. HARDIN: I’m going to ask you if you were aware of certain things. Lynn’s mother died in 1984. In July of 1985 Lynn cut herself. On 6/20/85 Lynn sometimes feels like hurting herself. What reason did she give? Was she suicidal?

JOE CARL: No.

HARDIN: Lynn told you she tried to commit suicide in college.

JOE CARL: I don’t think Lynn told me that, but I did knew she did.

HARDIN: The feelings of rage came up often during these sessions. Did she come home and tell you about them?

JOE CARL: Sometimes. The marriage was tested a lot. We were still in love, and wanted the marriage to work.

Hardin reads from a therapy session 9/16/85: Patient felt she was being sucked down in a dark pit and feeling evil.

JOE CARL: I don’t remember that.

HARDIN: Lynn doesn’t want him to touch her. She doesn’t want to touch him. She loves Joe, but doesn’t want to have sex with him.

JOE CARL: I don’t remember that.

HARDIN: Is it possible that you have sterilized your memories of the years before 1992?

After the Lynn’s first hospitalization in 1985, Joe and Lynn had 10 joint sessions with Calareto. Hardin goes through the notes for each session. Lynn is angry. She fears that she might hurt Joe or the children. She feels that Joe doesn’t take her seriously.

Joe Carl said he never had any fear of Lynn hurting the children, him, or her friend Jackie. He said he does not remember that her anger and fear were constantly coming out. He did remember that he was jealous of her friend Jackie. Lynn and Joe had 62 therapy sessions before 1992, before Lynn came to SSG.

HARDIN: You remember what happened at SSG in 1991?

JOE CARL: Yes, I had never been told before that I couldn’t have my wife and children together. Dr. Custer and Dr. Adams suggested that Lynn come to SSG.

HARDIN: Dr. Adams was in conspiracy with these people, pointing to the defendants?

JOE CARL: Dr. Custer suggested SSG.

Hardin points out that it was his last suggestion. Custer had suggested the Columbine Hospital in Littleton, one in Denver, Rush Presbyterian in Chicago and Spring Shadows Glen in Houston, TX.

JOE CARL: Of course we would choose the hospital in Texas, it was the closest to home. They (Adams and Custer) had a working relationship with SSG.

HARDIN: Let’s move out of sequence. (A note was passed to him by Peterson) When did your wife talk about snakes?

JOE CARL: I don’t remember

HARDIN: You don’t remember?

JOE CARL: If I recalled that I would tell you about it. I’m not sitting up here making things up.

HARDIN: Do you remember when your wife was having babies?

JOE CARL: I remember something like that.

HARDIN: I am not suggesting that you are making things up.

JOE CARL: I am trying to tell you as honestly as I can what I remember and don’t remember.

April 1991 Dr. Custer’s medical records: The patient is highly resistant. She needs a specialty hospital, Columbine, Rush, or SSG.

Hardin asks why Custer would mention the other two hospitals first if he wanted Lynn to go to SSG. Joe Carl replied that he didn’t have any idea what their motives were.

April 29,1991 Dr. Adam’s therapy notes: Discussed with patient information about 3 specialty units in Denver, Chicago, and Houston, and MPD diagnosis.

April 30, 1991: Nurse Dalton’s note: Patient is very nervous about cults, At night they have many ceremonies. Patient remains undecided about what to do. She thought she would be better at night.

Hardin says that this is the last of 10 hospitalizations before she came to SSG. She came to the hospital because she cut her breast.

Entry the same day by Boyd: Patient continues to be preoccupied by cult activities and confused by MPD diagnosis. Verbalizing thoughts of suicide. Patient had fears about cult in group therapy.

HARDIN: Lynn talked about the cult before she came to SSG.

JOE CARL: The first time I heard about cults was at SSG. She was very ill.

HARDIN: Would you agree with me that there were many references to cult activities?

JOE CARL: What I believe about SSG they certainly expanded on what Lynn believed in Austin.

HARDIN: This is what you have been pretending that you didn’t know.

5/1/91 Calareto’s notes: Patient talks about cult activities. Lots of questions about MPD and Dr. Adam’s statements. Husband wants information.

Hardin asked if it were possible that Joe wanted information about cults?

JOE CARL: I think I wanted information about MPD, not cult activity.

HARDIN: Why were you not talking to the doctors then? A man who was involved in therapy and concerned for his wife?

Hardin reads from a nurse’s entry 5/2/91: The visit with the family during visitation went well. Patient continues to feel the only way to save her son is for her to die.

JOE CARL: I don’t recall that.

5/4/91 Nurse’s notes: Patient continues suicidal thoughts. Lynn requests one-to-one. Patient told group that her issues were cult abuse.

HARDIN: One-to-one didn’t originate with SSG.

JOE CARL: True.

Hardin continues reading the nurse’s notes: The patient began speaking about some satanic abuse issues. She heard her mother’s voice and felt that she was angry. You never know who is in the cult. Patient is overwhelmed, scared and confused.

HARDIN: Is there a probability that you have been wrong about things? You are taking things out of context.

5/8/91 10:30 p.m. Patient terrified. Expressed feelings of being overwhelmed. She was afraid that the cult would get her again in the specialty hospital.

JOE CARL: She was a sick woman.

5/9/91 Dr. Custer’s notes: Patient said it was okay to call Dr. Peterson in Houston.

5/10/91 Family therapy: Lynn highly suicidal, no fight left.

JOE CARL: Not highly suicidal.

HARDIN: Is it possible that your perception was not correct?

JOE CARL: My perception was that we were coming down to Houston for some testing.

5/10/92 Discharge notes: Patient was discharged to husband. Husband and friend will provide 24-hour support. Patient and husband informed of risk of taking patient home.

Hardin pointed out that there is no mention of testing.

5/10/91 Dr. Custer and Calareto wanted to transfer Lynn directly into SSG. Joe and Lynn Carl wanted to go home first and say goodbye to the children. Dr. Raymond and Dr. Peterson would treat her at SSG.

JOE CARL: We thought that she was going down for a diagnostic assessment. We thought she was going down to Houston for testing.

Hardin (with change of time and place) reads from a therapy session on 11/18/85 with Lynn: She gets constant attention from Joe.

Hardin tells Joe that he had the wrong dates. Joe quickly agreed that he was wrong.

HARDIN: You were so insistent, and now you’re wrong. Isn’t it possible that you are wrong again?

JOE CARL: All I can do is to tell you what I think.

HARDIN: Lynn said that her anger had almost destroyed Joe.

Joe Carl said it was possible that his drinking was because of her anger. The drinking caused pancreatitis. His surgery was in November, 1985.

12/2/85 Joint session: Joe wants a plan. Joe is frustrated with Lynn’s fantasies.

12/16/85 Joint session: Talked about Lynn’s depression and suicide.

HARDIN: Do you recall the session?

JOE CARL: No I don’t recall, but we might have talked about it.

HARDIN: There were a total of 13 joint sessions in 1985.

1/31/85 Joint session: Joe’s angry about Lynn’s illness. He thinks fighting would be better. Joe praised Lynn for her endurance. Then fights. She was scared last week about paralysis.

Joe Carl said that he had expressed anger and frustration for years.

1/27/86 Dr. Custer thought Lynn should go into the hospital. She expressed anger that Joe didn’t think she worked in the hospital. This led to anxiety.

HARDIN: By the time she got to SSG she thought she got the best results when she was hospitalized. Joe thought she could work at home as an out patient.

6/1/91 Lynn Carl was the first MPD patient in the new MPD wing at SSG.

Session ended after lunch. One of the jurors needed to see a doctor.

Monday, January 25, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.


Joe Carl is on the witness stand.

For the previous week there was only one-half day of trial. The trial continues at the slow pace with only one-half day session today.

Lynn Carl had a total of 10 hospitalizations for psychiatric treatment between 1985 and 1990 prior to her admission at SSG. Because of patient confidentiality Joe Carl was not aware of the contents of the medical records for Lynn Carl for these hospitalizations. Defense attorney for Dr. Judith Peterson, Rusty Hardin continues to reveal the contents of the pre SSG records as he questions Joe Carl on the witness stand. Joe is given ring binders containing excerpts from the medical records.

Medical record, January 27, 1986: there was a family session that involved Joe Carl. There had been at least 16 family sessions. Joe was angry with Lynn for having to "work" in the hospital instead of continuing treatment as an outpatient.

Medical record, January 27, 1986: Lynn describes abuse from her brother - she was locked in closet and stripped of her clothes. She escaped the abuse by climbing out on the roof of their home. Therapist Collerato [sp] recorded that "one moment Lynn was childlike but broke away to write check." Problems dealing with anger [over abuse] led to hospitalization.

February 19, 1986: Lynn Carl is in the hospital for the second time.

Dr. Custer, hospital record dictated March 23, 1986: Problems - self destructive behavior, major depression, melancholia, PTSD, hopelessness as she has recurrent memories of past trauma. Dr. Custer refers back to the admission in February 1986 when he noted that Lynn was stable until the last two or three weeks. She became suicidal and had uncontrollable rage.

Nurse note, February 3, 1986: "Can’t calm my anger down - memories of abuse that are coming back are almost overwhelming." Ideas of suicide started coming up about two weeks ago.

JOE CARL: I don’t recall all these ideas of suicide ideas.

HARDIN: Isn’t it possible that you have sterilized your memories of what happened at this time?

JOE CARL: I don’t recall all these thoughts of suicide. I lived with her.

Nurse entry, February 1986: shutdown - discussed fear of hurting others or herself - abandonment.

HARDIN: Do you remember her fear of hurting others?

JOE CARL: No.

Hardin then makes the point that all the way back to 1986 Lynn Carl expressed the fear of hurting others.

Jane Collerato entry, February 11, 1986: discussed recollection of sexual detail [of abuse from brother], mother was present and laughing.

HARDIN: Did you believe that Lynn suffered abuse from her mother?

JOE CARL: I suppose that I did.

HARDIN: Do you believe it today?

JOE CARL: I believe it about her brother but I don’t know about the part about mother.

Other medical records from this time introduced the term "repressed". The notes said that the memories were "primarily repressed."

Jane Collerato entry: abuse from mother and sister.

JOE CARL: She didn’t have a sister.

Jane Collerato entry, February 28, 1986: memories about her mother. "Lynn remembered being left alone in a clinic after injury." From her memory stitches were applied without support from her mother.

JOE CARL: I have never heard about this incident. I don’t think it would be true knowing her mother.

Hardin calls attention to records from the end of February 1986 where the nurses were charting rageful feelings.

JOE CARL: I don’t recall those feelings.

Joe Carl said that he had no fear for himself or the children.

Hardin then brings up record from joint session where Joe is quoted as saying, "Her anger is really scary to me. I am afraid she will hurt me - despair - I walk on eggs."

There was a heated exchange between Hardin and Joe Carl concerning his memory of his feelings at the time. The judge finally intervened.

JOE CARL: Where does it state who is attending this session? [Was Joe there?]

HARDIN: Do you recall a session such as this?

JOE CARL: No sir.

At the end of the exchange it was not clear whether or not Joe was concerned about Lynn Carl hurting the children.

Hardin reads from the record: In her dreams her mother is cutting her up in little pieces - still talking suicide - Joe is scared - Joe says that he doesn’t want to live without her. Anger about mother - needs to kill her mother off and bury her.

HARDIN: Do you remember this session?

JOE CARL: No.

Hospital record four days [March 86] later: Mother left her in outhouse at age 7. Hurting self. Hurting self is her alternative to suicide. Hurt self at least 5 times last week.

HARDIN: As far back as 86 she was cutting herself. Do you remember?

JOE CARL: Yes.

Joint session record: Joe thinks he is less controlling, has less need for BJ to be perfect, BJ feels insecure and unloved.

HARDIN: What was Lynn doing about all the rage?

There was no answer from Joe Carl.

Hardin moves to the next tab in the ring binder [tab 68]. Hardin states that Dr. Custer had expressed concern that Lynn might self abuse while he was gone.

There were 4-5 instances while he was gone.

JOE CARL: It could have happened.

Custer record, 3/25/86: Talked to Lynn on phone - no further self abuse. Joe can’t handle Lynn’s bad behavior. Joe is filled with rage.

JOE CARL: Rage seems to be the word of choice for everyone. I am sure that I was angry.

The rest of morning was spend in these types of exchanges as Hardin slowly moves through the pre SSG hospital records. Below are some of what was in the records.

HARDIN: Do you recall ever seeing the letter?

JOE CARL: I don’t recall. I don’t believe that I have ever seen it.

At the end of April there are more entries about cutting. Lynn Carl is transferred to the intensive care unit.

HARDIN: Were you aware that five years before SSG you wife [was making these kinds of statements]?

JOE CARL: If Collerato was concerned why didn’t she say something to me?

May 13, 1986: Questions raised about Lynn Carl having Multiple Sclerosis. There was a Dr. Hudson who felt that Lynn did not have it but said that it would be a problem if she were told.

Most of the remainder of today’s half day court session was spent reviewing Joe Carl’s contact with the government regarding the case. Court session ended at 12:30 PM.

Tuesday, January 26, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.


Rusty Hardin continues the cross-examination of Joe Carl. He reads a letter from Janie Calareto to Cathleen Adams dated 2/1990 about a consultation about Lynn. Hardin asked Joe Carl if it would be fair to say that he didn’t remember this consultation. Joe doesn’t remember.

Hardin reads a summary of a letter from Dr. Custer to Dr. Adams. "I have been with Lynn when she dissociates and relives an event that happened in her past. She leaves and comes back when I touch her. I have asked Lynn for a release so we can talk. I want to learn more about your study group."

HARDIN: Lynn had cult memories in 1989.

JOE CARL: There was no mention of cult abuse before Lynn met Dr. Adams in 1990.

HARDIN: Are you saying that Cathleen Adams had suggested satanic abuse?

JOE CARL: I wasn’t there, but I think Adams started suggesting it. You told me about Lynn’s visit with Cathleen Adams. I didn’t know about it before. My earliest memories of satanic abuse were after she came to SSG. Now I think it may have come from Dr. Adams.

HARDIN: Did you tell the FBI that after Lynn came to SSG she began to talk about satanic cult abuse? Isn’t it true that you said, "I have sterilized my memory about things that happened from 1985-1991."

JOE CARL: I believe that SSG seriously damaged my wife.

HARDIN: What are you saying now?

JOE CARL: After she visited with Cathleen Adams in 1991 she came down to Houston to be tested for MPD. You showed me that Dr. Custer had her tested for MPD before she came. I didn’t understand that she had been tested in Austin. Eastepp had read me some documents that Lynn had been tested, but I don’t remember which ones.

HARDIN: Had you read the admitting form from Dr. Custer before you got on the stand?

JOE CARL: I can’t remember Dr. Custer’s admission statement.

HARDIN: Can you remember the subject of what you read?

JOE CARL: No.

HARDIN: Can you remember the date?

JOE CARL: No.

HARDIN: Let’s assume the document was read in 1998. How long were you with the FBI?

JOE CARL: My recollection was about an hour.

HARDIN: Did they (FBI) show you that it was not true that Lynn discovered satanic ritual abuse at SSG.

JOE CARL: I don’t think so.

HARDIN: Did you tell the FBI that your wife hadn’t talked about satanic ritual abuse until after she went to SSG?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: I have asked you more than once had you seen the documents. Since you have been on the stand have you reviewed any documents with the government?

JOE CARL: I have reviewed some documents, but I don’t remember which ones.

HARDIN: You can’t tell me now that you have never seen this letter?

JOE CARL: Yes, now that I know that my wife had seen Cathleen Adams. I have a history with Dr. Adams and Dr. Custer. I know what she did to me and my children.

HARDIN: How many times were in treatment with Adams? How many therapy sessions with Adams

JOE CARL: Maybe four or five sessions.

HARDIN: You said 20 or 30 times. You were just present when you took the children.

JOE CARL; She was in touch with SSG. She knew what was going on there.

HARDIN: You based your opinion on four or five meetings.

Hardin changes documents.

4/26/91: A letter from Dr. Adams written to ? : "Lynn first experienced cult activities when she lived in St. Louis Park."

Joe Carl interrupts and explained that was Lynn was a child.

Hardin continues reading: "A man was shot while he was climaxing. Jennifer was stuck in Lynn’s body. When she slumped his penis was sewn into her vagina. She was hung upside down and raped. One girl was killed because she wouldn’t cooperate.

HARDIN: As you sit here today your wife never talked to you about satanic cults?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN (reading): "Burned her knuckles with a stick of fire. Multiple rapes By many different people, chants, dark faces, robes in shadows, her mother’s hand. She doesn’t recognize people. Later remembers the cult in Duluth."

JOE CARL: This was all started in therapy.

HARDIN: She had all of these memories that Calareto wrote, long before she came to SSG. You were wrong about where these memories came from.

JOE CARL: My wife was very sick. Why wouldn’t Calareto tell me?

HARDIN: Do you believe these things? If the patient tells therapists outrageous things... Hasn’t it been your assumption that she didn’t have these memories before she came to SSG?

4/91 Dr. Custer’s letter to Cathleen Adams: "Thank you for seeing Lynn. Her mother took her to the cult when she was 8 or 9 years old and dropped her off. Her mother sexually stimulated Lynn’s father and then put Lynn in bed with him." Hardin continues to read.

HARDIN: Are you saying that if a patient reports all of these memories to a therapist that they should ignore them? The Judge tells Hardin to move on to another area.

HARDIN: Is it possible in you mind that some of these things didn’t happen?

JOE CARL: I don’t think these things happened.

HARDIN: Did you in 1995 believe they happened?

JOE CARL: Yes, I did believe.

HARDIN: Did you believe that she was in danger from the cult.

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: You said she had to work to get out of the cult.

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: You believed a lot of these things, even when your wife got out of SSG.

JOE CARL: Yes.

Hardin reads four different sets of notes from Dr. Custer, and Calareto, dated 7/13/90, 8/10/90, which mention cults, child pornography, and self-mutilation.

HARDIN: This is four times that cults are mentioned.

Morning break

8/10/90 Calareto’s notes: Lynn was talking about snakes and cages. She would not reveal other memories.

8/24/90 Calareto’s notes: Ice cold experience. She had a big dark pit in her abdomen. Child put into boiling water while they all watched.

HARDIN: Does that mean this was a break through and she was going to build her self esteem? Did she tell you about this?

JOE CARL: Nov

HARDIN: What if the doctors at SSG didn’t have these records? What would they do?

9/4/90 Dr. Custer’s notes: "According to the patient she had no alters."

10/21/90 Dr. Custer’s notes: "Lynn had flashbacks of satanic abuse. Discussed going to a specialized hospital for dissociate disorder, and satanic abuse. We will increase medication. Last two days she has not cut herself. Sees Janie twice a week."

HARDIN: Dr. Adams is a co-conspirator. Dr. Adams did not suggest going to a special hospital.

JOE CARL: No, that doesn’t mean that.

HARDIN: Do you have any evidence that Dr. Adams had anything to do with getting your wife sent to SSG?

Hardin reads more medical notes 2/19/90: "Patient began to talk to Mom about her lack of affection when Kristi was born. Patient wanted to murder Kristi."

HARDIN: Was your wife sick?

JOE CARL: She was very sick.

HARDIN: Would she harm her children?

JOE CARL: She would never harm her children.

Hardin reads a long therapy session note written by Calareto 10/26/90. Lynn describes more satanic abuse pornography. She said she told Joe about it.

Joe Carl said that he doesn’t remember her talking about satanic abuse.

HARDIN: Why would your wife say she told you about it, when she didn’t?

JOE CARL: I don’t know. Maybe she didn’t want to upset me?

Hardin continues with the therapy notes where Lynn is describing cult sexual abuse on 9/2/90, 11/9/90, and 12/16/90.

HARDIN: Did she ever have migraine headaches?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Did she ever curl up in a fetal position?

JOE CARL: At SSG she did.

HARDIN: Did she ever talk like a baby?

JOE CARL: I heard her on tape.

HARDIN: Did she ever start to have memories?

JOE CARL: I don’t know.

HARDIN: 1985-1986 Lynn was having memories. Aren’t you aware that they were the same symptoms as Mary Shanley?

JOE CARL: I don’t know.

HARDIN: If Mary Shanley and your wife were experiencing some of the same things before they entered SSG, where did they get the information?

JOE CARL: I have no idea. I didn’t know Mary Shanley.

Hardin returns to reading Calareto’s therapy notes of 2/15/91, 2/4/91, and 2/15/91. More of the same satanic abuse descriptions.

HARDIN: Can you explain to me why you believed all these things before Lynn came to SSG?

JOE CARL: I didn’t believe all this stuff. She was so sick that I don’t know what I believed.

HARDIN: How was a therapist to know what had happened?

Hardin read a note 2/22/91: "Lynn was suicidal."

JOEL CARL: My wife was suicidal when she went to SSG. The records show that.

Hardin reads the psychological assessment taken at CPC hospital in Austin 3/19/91. This is Lynn Carl’s hospitalization.

Hardin reminds the jury that so far there have been 12 entries of satanic abuse. He reads 5 more therapy entries: 3/9/91, 3/12/91, 3/27/91, 3/31/91, and 4/5/91. In all of these sessions cult issues came up. Hardin points out that all of this was before SSG.

4/23/91 Nurse’s assessment: "Patient had lacerations on her side. She was suicidal, homicidal, poor concentration."

Lunch break

HARDIN: Do you recall that in the last three weeks you thought the mail and telephone restrictions were unusual? It was because Lynn was frightened of the telephone and the mail. Do you recall that your wife was expressing concerns about cult abuse before she came to SSG? She was afraid for her son before she came to SSG.

HARDIN: The third admission to CPC Hospital was 4/24/9l. Lynn had 7 hospitalizations at Stone Hospital before this. She was admitted the last time at CPC for depression, self-mutilation, with scars on both forearms, breast and multiple scars on abdomen.

4/25/91: Lynn came out of a survival group and said, "I’m so afraid. You all can’t help me. You don’t know what these people can do.

HARDIN: Are you aware that there are 27 or 28 entries that Lynn was talking about cults before she came to SSG?

4/27/91 Dr. Cathleen Adams records: Consultation called by Dr. Custer. Patient definite MPD, many alters. Cult alters did not want to surface. Recommends specialty hospitals: Carrie Hospital, Denver, Columbine Hospital, Littleton, Colo., and Rush Presbyterian, Chicago.

Hardin points out that she doesn’t mention SSG.

HARDIN: Wouldn’t it make sense that if Adams were in conspiracy to exchange patients she would mention SSG?

Hardin reads from a letter written by Adams to Custer and Calareto: "Definite MPD. Hypnotherapy must be used from now on. Three system access, left hand alters. The patient is highly resistant and needs specialty hospital. Access alters. Get them into alignment. Implant put in by cult. Lynn needs to meet alters.

HARDIN: At this time you believed in cults?

Art therapy report: "Patient dissociates after talking about cult abuse. Patient confused by the Adam’s consult of MPD. Patient expressed fear for her future and being able to work on these issues.

JOE CARL: Lynn didn’t like Dr. Adams.

(Hardin jumps from record book to record book.)

Hardin reads from Dr. Custer’s records: "Lynn will see Cathleen Adams on Thursday. She may have MPD.

HARDIN: The idea that Cathleen Adams was the originator of this is not true.

2/17/90 Dr. Adam’s records: "Complication with Lynn MPD, SRA. Patient did her own trance induction. Official atypical MPD. Alters are not well defined. One doesn’t come out. ‘Sometimes I don’t have clothes on,’ the 5 year old said. ‘I hope I don’t cry. I came once when I was 7.’" The purpose was diagnosis. "She’s guilty of telling secrets and should be punished. Overall the personality.... Patient also talks about losing time. She lost time in a grocery store. She had group sex with children and adults. All alters agree that they determine what Lynn does. Recommend therapy. Meet at least two sessions. Do not separate alters. Expect further layers. Some alters are afraid to identify themselves. Patient said yes to being urinated on during sex. Patient has primary typical ritual abuse experience."

JOE CARL: I wish I had heard this in 1990.

HARDIN: You embraced it in 1991.

JOE CARL: She came to Houston for testing. They didn’t tell me she had MPD. I might have had enough sense not to buy into this hogwash. I did buy into it. If I had read this I might not have. I had no idea what MPD was.

HARDIN: Did you write somebody a letter in 1992 that praised Dr. Peterson?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Were you aware of an incident of hands around Kristi’s neck?

Hardin pulls out a letter written by Joe Carl praising Dr. Peterson for her work with his family.

Session ends.

Wednesday, January 27, 1999.

Houston, Texas.

From notes by attendees


DISCLAIMER: The following material, based on hand-written notes, is presented for those who may be interested in the writers’ personal impressions of the courtroom proceedings as they happened. Although the writers have attempted to be as accurate as possible, the official transcripts remain the authoritative reference for what actually occurred.

Hardin continues his cross-examination of Joe Carl.

HARDIN: Before I go on I want to clear up something. You told us repeatedly that you had never sat down and personally reviewed records of Lynn’s hospital records.

JOE CARL: No.

HARDIN: Do you recall January 14,1999, one of the days you testified? Do you recall the number of suicide experiences your wife had?

JOE CARL: No.

HARDIN: Do you not recall the experiences that Kristi had?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Do you recall exhibit 217?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: How many pages?

JOE CARL: Two pages.

HARDIN: Do you recall testifying to this?

JOE CARL: I am telling you the truth as best as I can. You can twist it any way you like. This whole trial is hard for me.

HARDIN: Do you understand that your memory today may not be the same as yesterday?

JOE CARL: Notes 12/17/98: I have reviewed that in that session.

HARDIN: Who was there?

JOE CARL: The FBI and me, and a bundle of hospital records. Eastepp was in his office. We went over hospital records.

HARDIN: When you testify wrongly does not mean that you are lying.

JOE CARL: I agree with that.

HARDIN: When you were talking about restraints, were there sessions when you were shown records? Is your testimony that you don’t know what records you saw? Have you seen any of the records we have gone over?

JOE CARL: I may have seen some of them. I have seen very few of the hospital records.

HARDIN: Do you recall any more about the letter you wrote?

JOE CARL: Yes, I’m sure that someone asked me to write that letter. I was not award of the investigation at the time. I know myself. I didn’t know about the incident. I do not remember writing that letter.

HARDIN: After it occurred did Dr. Peterson talk to you about it?

JOE CARL: I had great faith in Dr. Peterson. I was under stress.

HARDIN: You were under stress so that explains why you don’t remember? How many times between 1985 and 1991 did Lynn cut herself -- about 30? She sometimes cut her legs.

JOE CARL: I don’ t remember her cutting her legs.

HARDIN: I want to ask you, going back to the old book, the 1985 records of Dr. Custer. Would you agree -- Lynn and Joe had a session. Lynn felt very angry toward him. She was concerned about the power of her rage. She beat him on the back. Angry because Joe discounted that she was a victim. Her brother and mother abused her. Custer told her that she should get out anger without acting out. She goes to another 9 hospitals after this. She had some 60 joint sessions over the next five years. Lynn got better for a period after each hospitalization. Were you opposed to any of the ten hospitalizations?

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Did she ever leave before she wanted to?

JOE CARL: Not that I remember.

HARDIN: I have all the notes we went over yesterday and would you have any quarrel about the number of times she talked about suicide? Is it your belief that SSG exaggerated her suicide attempts? Were you aware that she was able to cut herself at SSG.

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: How often do you think suicide came up?

JOE CARL: About a dozen times, three times at home.

Hardin moves to a chart and records all the times that suicide was discussed. He discussed and charted each by date. There were 12 times.

JOE CARL: Don’t you think if she were serious about suicide she could step out in front of a car?

HARDIN moves by the chart: Were you not looking for an answer?

JOE CARL: I was always looking for an answer. I was thrilled to find SSG because they had the answer.

12/8/1986 Calareto’s notes: Joint session with Lynn and her father. "Father not hearing and not seeing. We don’t see, hear, we don’t want to know."

HARDIN: Did your wife ever talk to you about being locked in a privy?

JOE CARL: No.

12/26/1986 Calareto notes: "Joe told a story and accused Lynn of having affairs with lesbian women."

JOE CARL: She didn’t like me and I was frustrated.

Hardin continues to read the notes. "Lynn and Joe were having trouble with sex. Lynn said she didn’t want to be a woman."

JOE: Having sex makes me feel wanted, desirable, and close.

10:00 Break

Hardin continues with the suicide chart. He lists 8 more attempts with dates and descriptions. Judge Werlein looks up at the ceiling.

HARDIN: Do you remember meeting with a lawyer in 1995?

JOE CARL: Yes, I do recall.

HARDIN: Did you tell him that the children had different personalities. Lynn was very violent and strong and had many personalities.

JOE CARL: In February 1995 I believed it. I believed it when I was at SSG.

HARDIN: Why would you tell people that you believed that you had seen different personalities?

JOE CARL: I was brain-washed myself, and I did believe this. I am not the doctor. I thought I saw all that stuff. I blame me for not stopping this therapy. You are trying to trick me sir.

JUDGE WERLEIN: Calm down.

JOE CARL: They took my children who were not sick and made them sick. Took my wife who was sick and made her sicker.

HARDIN: Did you tell them that BJ was not cooperative, lacked maturity? BJ had a ball shoving his sister around. Lynn was very violent, ran away and cut her wrists before SSG. Did you discuss a divorce in 1993?

JOE CARL: I had no reason to doubt that Lynn was violent. He needed a restraining order.

HARDIN: Did you discuss with Keraga a restraining order two months before you got it? Do you recall when you got your divorce? Hadn’t you threatened to get a restraining order?

JOE CARL: Somebody suggested it?

HARDIN: Could it have been Frank Schultz? You don’t know who told you to get a restraining order?

JOE CARL: I don’t remember who suggested it.

HARDIN: You didn’t know a few minutes ago that you got a restraining order: Do you know when you filed for divorce? Did you tell the doctors that you filed for divorce?

JOE CARL: I told Dr. Keraga.

HARDIN: When did you tell doctors and your wife that you wanted a restraining order?

JOE CARL: I don’t know when I did.

Lunch break until 2:20

HARDIN: Do you recall that in February, 1995 you told the lawyers that if something happened to the children that it was their mother’s fault. No question that she was in the cult. The children were certain that their mother had harmed them.

JOE CARL: I could have said that in 1995.

HARDIN: Did you tell him that you had a malpractice suit in 1988? Kristi and BJ transferred to Austin. At that time BJ raped Kristi.

JOE CARL: I could have said that.

HARDIN: Tell them that you were aware of sexual abuse.

JOE CARL: I could have said that.

HARDIN: Did you tell them that your wife’s lawsuit was encouraged by FMSF?

JOE Carl: I could have said that. I have no knowledge of FMSF.

HARDIN: Did you say that Kristi felt her mother was involved in the cult?

HARDIN: Do you recall August 1995 that the police department investigated to see if abuse had occurred?

JOE CARL: Yes, it did happen.

HARDIN: As of August 1995 you believed your children. Sometime in 1993 someone mailed you an article written by Mark Smith from the Chronicle. Do you remember reading the article?

JOE CARL: I don’t remember reading it.

Hardin reviews Custer’s medical records 6/10/91: "Patient history and mental status examination, Reason for hospitalization was self abuse. Patient 40 years old, been in treatment for 6 years. Evidence of lost time. Patient says son must die. Patient’s third time at Capital Hospital. Diagnosis: atypical dissociate disorder. Individual therapy twice a week. Patient cut herself after finding a note in her dresser that said her son must die. Hospitalization is necessary.

JOE CARL: It is interesting that Custer didn’t know about MPD at the time. If he knew something about this before he would have said something. A full two months before Lynn came to SSG she was talking to Dr. Custer.

Hardin reads the following dates: March 1993 Lynn left SSG, June 28, 1993 BJ left SSG, and July 1, 1993 Kristi left SSG.

HARDIN: When did you conclude that BJ had not raped your daughter? You said that BJ was released too soon and settle a lawsuit in 1994. Shortly filed a lawsuit against Oaks Hospital in Austin. Then you decided all this was poppycock what you believed happened didn’t happen.

JOE CARL: Some events changed, my mind changed. In November,1994 BJ was not sexually abusing my daughter.

HARDIN: When did you retire?

JOE CARL: About two years ago. I am 57 years old now.

HARDIN: You sued and collected from an insurance company for something that didn’t happen.

JOE CARL: Yes.

HARDIN: Did you return the money?

JOE CARL: No, not unless they ask for it.

HARDIN: Was it the insurance company’s fault?

JOE CARL: No.

Hardin passes the witness to Tom Hageman, one of Mueck’s lawyers.

Shortly after Hageman took the stand, the Judge called for an afternoon break. It was 4:20. Cogdell then cross examined Joe Carl but no notes are available.

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